Cribbage's Standardised Test Averages (UPDATED November 2018 - posts 753-755)

[bagapath]

And it is also that Kapil found himself in a lot many situations where India were in trouble compared to Imran. Under Imran Pakistan were easily in the top 3 of the world and gave the best of that time a real run for their money. So it is also that a lot of times that Imran did come in to bat, the team was not really in that much trouble.

so you are saying he did not play any significant, memorable knock because he didn't have to. i may not agree with the reason but i agree that he didnt do anything exciting as a batsman.

 

[Ikki]

would love to hear from you guys what you consider imran's top knocks were. this forum doesnt always have to be about people proving a point to each other. so tell me why you think imran's batting was good, when he lit up the grounds with the bat in his hand. i cant think of any such moments myself, so i would like to know.

I think smalishah84 actually provided a good list. Imran may have been more of a match saver, but I think those knocks were still noteworthy. Here are 3 top knocks.

2nd Test: Australia v Pakistan at Adelaide, Jan 19-23, 1990 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - where Pakistan had collapsed to 5-90 and he built an unbelievable partnership with Wasim Akram adding almost 200 runs before the next wicket was lost.

1st Test: India v Pakistan at Chennai, Feb 3-8, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan make a great start with Shoaib Mohammad and Javed Miandad but lose 4 wickets in very quick succession (4-237 to 7-273) and Imran with Wasim Akram again helps Pakistan past 400.

1st Test: Pakistan v West Indies at Lahore, Nov 24-29, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan faces an awesome WIndies attack but slump to 5-95. Imran arrives helping Pakistan, with Wasim Raja and Sarfraz Nawaz, to a very good total of 369.

 

[smash84]

That might be stretching it. Imran was no Bradman with the bat but he was no Courtney Walsh either. As I said earlier that he did save a few matches and against India 1978 he and Javed knocked off 116 runs in the final session of the match (in karachi IIRC..not sure though) in 18 or 20 overs. Imran really took Bedi to the cleaners in that match. A few matches in Australia ensured that Pak ended up at least drawing those matches his 136 (IIRC). And against the West Indies in 88??? At least the final match in 90-91 WI-Pak series (it was a gun series) Imran had an excellent all round final match and had there been a few more overs might have actually won it with the bat too. He did end up saving it with the bat for Pakistan though.

A few of the knocks which I had mentioned previously.

so you are saying he did not play any significant, memorable knock because he didn't have to. i may not agree with the reason but i agree that he didnt do anything exciting as a batsman.

So nobody ever said that Imran was an exciting batsman compared to Kapil. Far from it. In fact Imran was probably boring to watch as a batsman if you compare him to Kapil. But he was probably a more solid batsman who could stick at the crease. Kapil seemed to be a more hit and miss batsman. And he missed much more often than he hit. And as I said earlier Imran was not really a match winner with the bat. But a match saver, yes.

 

[smash84]

I think smalishah84 actually provided a good list. Imran may have been more of a match saver, but I think those knocks were still noteworthy. Here are 3 top knocks.

2nd Test: Australia v Pakistan at Adelaide, Jan 19-23, 1990 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - where Pakistan had collapsed to 5-90 and he built an unbelievable partnership with Wasim Akram adding almost 200 runs before the next wicket was lost.

1st Test: India v Pakistan at Chennai, Feb 3-8, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan make a great start with Shoaib Mohammad and Javed Miandad but lose 4 wickets in very quick succession (4-237 to 7-273) and Imran with Wasim Akram again helps Pakistan past 400.

1st Test: Pakistan v West Indies at Lahore, Nov 24-29, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan faces an awesome WIndies attack but slump to 5-95. Imran arrives helping Pakistan, with Wasim Raja and Sarfraz Nawaz, to a very good total of 369.

And you might as well add the 3rd test of 90-91 WI-Pak series. Almost won the match for Pakistan.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63542.html

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63540.html

 

[bagapath]

I think smalishah84 actually provided a good list. Imran may have been more of a match saver, but I think those knocks were still noteworthy. Here are 3 top knocks.

2nd Test: Australia v Pakistan at Adelaide, Jan 19-23, 1990 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - where Pakistan had collapsed to 5-90 and he built an unbelievable partnership with Wasim Akram adding almost 200 runs before the next wicket was lost.

1st Test: India v Pakistan at Chennai, Feb 3-8, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan make a great start with Shoaib Mohammad and Javed Miandad but lose 4 wickets in very quick succession (4-237 to 7-273) and Imran with Wasim Akram again helps Pakistan past 400.

1st Test: Pakistan v West Indies at Lahore, Nov 24-29, 1980 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo - Pakistan faces an awesome WIndies attack but slump to 5-95. Imran arrives helping Pakistan, with Wasim Raja and Sarfraz Nawaz, to a very good total of 369.

the third one was a great knock. hats off.

the first one was a standard issue good test innings. nothing special about it; "good one mate, can you pass me that beer can please" kind of an innings. akram turned it on in a biggish way, though.

the second one was a thilan samaraweera kind of masterpiece on a batting paradise amounting to nothing in the end. (1198 runs for 21 wickets in five days, thank you mr. curator) i remember the test match and test series really well and it was as pointless as it looks on paper.

pl dont think i am running your choices down. these are really predicatable knocks expected of any test batsman/all-rounder worth his salary. did you take a look at the list i have posted? those are adam gilchrist, viv richards kind of innings.

kapil's batting had the X factor. he could screw the opposition bowlers in two hours of classic hitting and leave their egos bruised, somewhat like what imran's bowling could do to great batting lineups. imran's batting was like kapil's bowling; steady, reliable, unspectacular, standard issue...

 

[bagapath]

A few of the knocks which I had mentioned previously.



So nobody ever said that Imran was an exciting batsman compared to Kapil. Far from it. In fact Imran was probably boring to watch as a batsman if you compare him to Kapil. But he was probably a more solid batsman who could stick at the crease. Kapil seemed to be a more hit and miss batsman. And he missed much more often than he hit. And as I said earlier Imran was not really a match winner with the bat. But a match saver, yes.

agree with some of your points. and disagree with calling kapil a hit and miss batter. there was a method to his madness. very very few batters scored over 5000 runs at 30+ avg and at 80+ SR. he is one of them. if you juxtapose this ability with imran's steady 37 avg at a sub 50 SR, you can see that kapil was a special batsman while imran was probably one of dime a dozen.

 

[Teja.]

Saying Kapil is a better bat than Imran due to his X-factor is like saying Laxman>Sanga, IMHO.

On the other hand, To call Kapil is a slogger is close to criminal. A batsman who didn't make full use of his potential and was a little ambitious in his shots and hence completely deserves his 30 average? Yeah. But please, not a slogger. Kapil could score freely on the best of fast bowlers on pace friendly wickets. If we start calling a batsman a slogger just because he was aggressive, Let's call 'em, Viv's, Hughes' and Trumpers's sloggers eh?(not saying Kapil was of the same quality btw)

While I don't think Laxman's 281 deserves to be in the top 10 batting performances of all-time tbh, I reckon' one of Kapil's bowling performances deserves to be in the top 5 of all-time. 9-81 against the West Indies in 1983/1984. And no this was not Perth or the Gabba, It was an Ahmedabadi pitch.

Criminally underrated cricketer IMHO. Never reached the frightening peaks of an Imran or a Miller but did not have any lows either, went on for 16 years without injury or loss in form.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Well if anything I actually think they lower the average in many cases. For most batsmen, it's a lot easier to play when set than right at the start of your innings, so having to basically re-start your innings against a different set of bowlers on a different pitch etc is a disadvantage to your average.

This applies of course only when trying to measure how well someone has batted rather than the influence they've had on the game, which is a bit different.

That sounds like a stance that can be applied to the North-Katich type debates.

 

[janetibarbosa]

Understand his average may go a little - much played in Australia (not that he scored all the tests against them, but he does score runs worth a fraction more) and received a gut full against a good lineup in South Africa . Can not see the pad 35 itself.

 

[Sanz]

I have seen him bat. Don't assume so much; it's baffling.

If you had watched Kapil bat, you would not call him a slogger or put him in a category of the likes of Akram.

Either that or you were just trolling.

 

[smash84]

agree with some of your points. and disagree with calling kapil a hit and miss batter. there was a method to his madness. very very few batters scored over 5000 runs at 30+ avg and at 80+ SR. he is one of them. if you juxtapose this ability with imran's steady 37 avg at a sub 50 SR, you can see that kapil was a special batsman while imran was probably one of dime a dozen.

You make it sound like Kapil was another Sehwag in test matches. Far from it. There is nothing Bradmanesque about an average of 32. It is quite ordinary. An 80+ SR tells us that he could score runs quickly but he probably didn't stick around for too long. Which is important in building partnerships. And 5000 runs doesn't mean too much really especially considering the 130 odd test matches.that he played. Imran too has almost 4000 runs in just 88 matches so the number of runs is not really an issue here. The SR was phenomenal but like I said Kapil was probably not as solid as Imran at the crease. Imran could stick in there for a long time.

And I re-iterate that probably Kapil was a better batsman naturally but he probably never got the opportunity to hone that talent because he was the main work horse for India. Imran had other bowlers to fall back upon like Sarfaraz, Wasim, and later Waqar and Aqib Javed. Kapil didn't have that luxury.

Also those innings had been posted because you mentioned that Imran had "close to 0" performances with the bat where he had made an impact on the match. Which is obviously far from the truth. Not to suggest that his effect on matches had been like Gilchrist, Sehwag, or Viv Richards but he was solid, reliable, and unspectacular. That is all that is being said. And yes Kapil probably didn't do a lot of justice to his batting talent which is why many (or at least some) would prefer Imran with the bat over Kapil.

Saying Kapil is a better bat than Imran due to his X-factor is like saying Laxman>Sanga, IMHO.


Criminally underrated cricketer IMHO. Never reached the frightening peaks of an Imran or a Miller but did not have any lows either, went on for 16 years without injury or loss in form.

Well said.

And I never equated Kapil's batting with Akram's please. That would be a huge travesty IMO. And I never said he was a slogger. He was a decent and aggressive batsman but to suggest that he was anything more than decent would be a little misleading IMO. Yes, he played some spectacular innings with the bat but a few good innings doesn't mean that the batsman is dependable.

 

[bagapath]

well.... an average of 31 is not bradmenesque. but we are not comparing kapil and bradman. we are only comparing the 31 avg/81SR with a 37avg/47.5SR. so it is a pretty decent platform to stand.

imran was a good bat. i knew it before we started this argument. but my point was kapil did achieve more with the bat in test cricket. imran hasnt got much to boast about in this department. his average doesnt mean much to a cricket addict like me. i would always take a stirring, match winning performance over a pointless, average boosting effort.

i would love to hear from you about his best batting performances and why you think those performances were on par with/ or better than kapil's best.

 

[vcs]

Understand his average may go a little - much played in Australia (not that he scored all the tests against them, but he does score runs worth a fraction more) and received a gut full against a good lineup in South Africa . Can not see the pad 35 itself.

But won't the average in South Africa go up in the Tests he didn't play with a good lineup against Australia with a full gut?

 

[smash84]

well.... an average of 31 is not bradmenesque. but we are not comparing kapil and bradman. we are only comparing the 31 avg/80SR with a 37avg/50SR. so it is a pretty decent platform to stand.

imran was a good bat. i knew it before we started this argument. but my point was kapil did achieve more with the bat in test cricket. imran hasnt got much to boast about in this department. his average doesnt mean much to a cricket addict like me. i would always take a stirring, match winning performance over a pointless, average boosting effort.

i would love to hear from you about his best batting performances and why you think those performances were on par with/ or better than kapil's best.

First of all I couldn't find the exact SR of both on cricinfo. Initially you had mentioned that Imran had sub 50 SR and Kapil 80+. What are the exact figures btw????

That is the whole point. If you think that saving a match is just pointless and average boosting then yes Imran's best innings were just those pointless and average boosting. However if you are able to realize that there is a difference between losing and drawing the match then you should have enough sense to see that Imran's innings saved matches and I am not reading too much more into them.

And I didn't say that Imran's best batting performances were at par or better than Kapil's best performances. I only said that Imran was probably a more dependable batsman. And dependable doesn't only mean that out of 130 odd matches you make a few hundreds here and there to turn the match. It also means that you sometimes bring your team in such a position that they are able to win the match from there easily or to be able to hold your ground just enough so that your team gets enough of a chance that it wins the match. Dependable also means that if your team is in trouble you would be able to save the match for them. I hope I am able to convey my point.

A good gauge can be performance in matches that their respective teams have won and the player's contribution in those. SRs are quite meaningless if a player can't get his team to victory.

 

[Ikki]

If you had watched Kapil bat, you would not call him a slogger or put him in a category of the likes of Akram.

Either that or you were just trolling.

I'd call Sehwag a slogger too. It's not a derogatory comment for me. And I didn't compare him with Wasim; IIRC someone else brought Wasim up when comparing to Miller.

 

[bagapath]

First of all I couldn't find the exact SR of both on cricinfo. Initially you had mentioned that Imran had sub 50 SR and Kapil 80+. What are the exact figures btw????

please dont reduce my argument to stats, mate. i am not claiming kapil was a better bat than imran only because he had better SR. his high SR helped him influence the games in a positive way. who else could hit 4 sixers to avoid follow on? it was an aspect of his game that made it more exciting and hurt the opposition bowlers. look at it in the context of the game at large not just as mere decimals. but if you still insist... kapil's SR was 80.91 "(4th highest of all time) and Imran's was 47.52 (95th in all time rankings) . telling stats actually! here is the link.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...alval1=hundreds;template=results;type=batting

 

[smash84]

please dont reduce my argument to stats, mate. i am not claiming kapil was a better bat than imran only because he had better SR. his high SR helped him influence the games in a positive way. who else could hit 4 sixers to avoid follow on? it was an aspect of his game that made it more exciting and hurt the opposition bowlers. look at it in the context of the game at large not just as mere decimals. but if you still insist... kapil's SR was 80.91 "(4th highest of all time) and Imran's was 47.52 (95th in all time rankings) . telling stats actually! here is the link.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I am not reducing your argument to stats. The only thing that you answered from my last post was the first line. And nothing else.

Can you please tell me if you think that match saving knocks even feature in your criteria of judging somebody's batting. And can you also please answer as to what you think a dependable batsman really is????

 

[smash84]

elling stats actually! here is the link.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

What is so telling about that??? And since when did Strike Rates become the most important criteria of judging the worth of a batsman and that too in a test match????

 

[Blaze 18]

Clearly, Prince EWS has put in a lot of time and effort into this strenuous task and deserves full credit for it; but I have never been a fan of such excercises because the game has evolved so much over the years that it becomes virtually impossible to "standardize" the numbers.

Having said that, this is possibly a "fairer" way of comparing players than using raw statistics. Still, I reckon watching a player play and making a judgement based on that is any day preferable to comparisons using numbers.

 

[smash84]

well.... an average of 31 is not bradmenesque. but we are not comparing kapil and bradman. we are only comparing the 31 avg/80SR with a 37avg/50SR. so it is a pretty decent platform to stand.

.

And while a difference in SR in test matches might not make much difference between batsmen since they have unlimited overs to play a difference of 6.5 is huge. So please don't try to make the SR look as if it is the most important criteria used to judge a batsman.