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Cribbage's Standardised Test Averages (UPDATED November 2018 - posts 753-755)

smash84

The Tiger King
Well, I didn't mean that in a demeaning way. I meant it how you said: he was aggressive. Yes, he did have 100s against the WIndies but that does not really make him a better batsman than Imran overall. Imran too has great knocks and scored a fine century himself against the WIndies attack. Imran was also far more adept away from home. Even in terms of the rate they scored 50s/100s Imran equals Kapil (a bit more 100s, a bit less 50s). He is 7 points higher average wise - yes, I know a bit exaggerated but he is still ahead even in terms of runs per innings.
From Imran's interview

"How do you compare with the three other great allrounders from the 1970s and 80s: Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev?"

"We were all great competitors. I had my duels with all three. Botham was a better batsman than all of them, Hadlee was a better bowler than the others, and Kapil Dev, at one point, had great batting potential but never developed it. It's not easy at that level to keep developing both skills."
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Well, I didn't mean that in a demeaning way. I meant it how you said: he was aggressive. Yes, he did have 100s against the WIndies but that does not really make him a better batsman than Imran overall. Imran too has great knocks and scored a fine century himself against the WIndies attack. Imran was also far more adept away from home. Even in terms of the rate they scored 50s/100s Imran equals Kapil (a bit more 100s, a bit less 50s). He is 7 points higher average wise - yes, I know a bit exaggerated but he is still ahead even in terms of runs per innings.
If you have not watched Kapil bat, at least read some of the stuff written about his batting.

My god the kind of assumptions you are making based on raw stats is just baffling. I have not seen anyone so wrong about every argument.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
From Imran's interview

"How do you compare with the three other great allrounders from the 1970s and 80s: Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev?"

"We were all great competitors. I had my duels with all three. Botham was a better batsman than all of them, Hadlee was a better bowler than the others, and Kapil Dev, at one point, had great batting potential but never developed it. It's not easy at that level to keep developing both skills."
Those I think are words of wisdom. This is why I tend to avoid (with only partial success, admittedly) to look at averages of all-rounders. We should also look at number of outstanding performances with bat and ball.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Those I think are words of wisdom. This is why I tend to avoid (with only partial success, admittedly) to look at averages of all-rounders. We should also look at number of outstanding performances with bat and ball.
Obviously it is not at all easy to develop both skills at that level but that is what makes great all rounders special. They are reasonable good in both.

And I do agree that outstanding performances do matter. However consistency is also another factor. There are loads of things that have to be taken into account and not just one or two factors here and there. The fact that these guys bring so many intangibles into the side with them should count for a lot too which might never appear in stats.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Those I think are words of wisdom. This is why I tend to avoid (with only partial success, admittedly) to look at averages of all-rounders. We should also look at number of outstanding performances with bat and ball.
And as Imran probably also alludes to it but one of the reasons that Kapil could not probably develop his batting was that he was the main work horse for India for almost all of his career. Imran had at different times others to support him or to take his place like Sarfaraz, Wasim, Waqar, Salim Jaffar, Aqib, etc. Kapil didn't have that luxury.
 

Maximus0723

State Regular
And as Imran probably also alludes to it but one of the reasons that Kapil could not probably develop his batting was that he was the main work horse for India for almost all of his career. Imran had at different times others to support him or to take his place like Sarfaraz, Wasim, Waqar, Salim Jaffar, Aqib, etc. Kapil didn't have that luxury.
Good observation.
 

JBH001

International Regular
You say these things as if they are positives for Miller.. I mean the war is a mitigating factor yes, but the rest is his own indiscipline and lack of commitment (if what you say is true) and I can't see how it is anything other than a negative for him.
Yes, I see this as more evidence of the myth making surrounding Miller. His military career (available on Wiki) indicates someone who always had problems with discipline - a tendency that his wartime service only exacerbated. It was not the case, as sometimes made out to be, that Miller's carefree attitude was the sole result of his wartime experiences. Instead, he seems to have always had that "unprofessional" attitude which was later fed by his service; an attitude that was also seemingly indulged at times by his superiors, and then made into something of a "halo" after the war by eulogising English writers.

(Interestingly, Miller's actual wartime experience is limited only to the last month of the European theatre, although he seems to have come close to death a number of times on the training ground.)

The Wiki Link is here: Military career of Keith Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll post over the weekend, if I have the time, with regard to Miller's status as an all-rounder. (It's been a hell of a workweek and I'm on my way out the office.)
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
Yes, I see this as more evidence of the myth making surrounding Miller. His military career (available on Wiki) indicates someone who always had problems with discipline - a tendency that his wartime service only exacerbated. It was not the case, as sometimes made out to be, that Miller's carefree attitude was the sole result of his wartime experiences. Instead, he seems to have always had that "unprofessional" attitude which was later fed by his service; an attitude that was also seemingly indulged at times by his superiors, and then made into something of a "halo" after the war by eulogising English writers.

(Interestingly, Miller's actual wartime experience is limited only to the last month of the European theatre, although he seems to have come close to death a number of times on the training ground.)

The Wiki Link is here: Military career of Keith Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll post over the weekend, if I have the time, with regard to Miller's status as an all-rounder. (It's been a hell of a workweek and I'm on my way out the office.)
interesting
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
From Imran's interview

"How do you compare with the three other great allrounders from the 1970s and 80s: Botham, Hadlee, Kapil Dev?"

"We were all great competitors. I had my duels with all three. Botham was a better batsman than all of them, Hadlee was a better bowler than the others, and Kapil Dev, at one point, had great batting potential but never developed it. It's not easy at that level to keep developing both skills."
I'm aware of what people thought of Kapil's batting but his output didn't match Imran's. That's pretty much all there is to it. Maybe if like Imran he got a period where he could have concentrated more on his batting he could have improved. Imran did get it, and he did improve. If I could have one to bat for me, it'd be Imran.

If you have not watched Kapil bat, at least read some of the stuff written about his batting.

My god the kind of assumptions you are making based on raw stats is just baffling. I have not seen anyone so wrong about every argument.
I have seen him bat. Don't assume so much; it's baffling.

Yes, I see this as more evidence of the myth making surrounding Miller. His military career (available on Wiki) indicates someone who always had problems with discipline - a tendency that his wartime service only exacerbated. It was not the case, as sometimes made out to be, that Miller's carefree attitude was the sole result of his wartime experiences. Instead, he seems to have always had that "unprofessional" attitude which was later fed by his service; an attitude that was also seemingly indulged at times by his superiors, and then made into something of a "halo" after the war by eulogising English writers.

(Interestingly, Miller's actual wartime experience is limited only to the last month of the European theatre, although he seems to have come close to death a number of times on the training ground.)

The Wiki Link is here: Military career of Keith Miller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll post over the weekend, if I have the time, with regard to Miller's status as an all-rounder. (It's been a hell of a workweek and I'm on my way out the office.)
From that link:

Miller was Australia's top-scorer during the Victory Tests and came to the fore with his fast bowling. Miller was acclaimed for his free-spirited and adventurous batting, which he attributed to the triviality of sport in comparison to war.
In 1944, Miller was again selected for the RAAF team. Near-death experiences and the knowledge that he could be the next to die, changed Miller's outlook to life. An RAAF teammate was killed on a mission soon after hitting a century.
I am not sure how being disrespectful to officers equates to his laisse-faire attitude towards cricket. Although I would say that I tend to agree with you. He did seem to have the groundwork.

-----

Impressively, during the Victory Tests Miller topped the batting charts (above Hammond and Hutton) for scoring 443 @ 63.28 and 10 wickets @ 27.70. And England were practically their full strength Test side. That link shows just how good Miller was before becoming a front-line bowler. Hit fantastic attacks and had a very high average.
 
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smash84

The Tiger King
I am not sure how being disrespectful to officers equates to his laisse-faire attitude towards cricket. Although I would say that I tend to agree with you. He did seem to have the groundwork.
Wow. One of those rare moments. Consider yourself privileged JBH....:)
 

bagapath

International Captain
I'm aware of what people thought of Kapil's batting but his output didn't match Imran's.
in terms of averages and as, as you said, runs per innings kapil didnt match imran, i agree. but imran was a capable bat at best. he never produced anything as scintillating as kapil ever as a batsman. as bowlers imran was miles ahead but that is a different story.

as batters the difference between them in terms of effectiveness is comparable to the difference between laxman and samaraweera. one guy clearly averages 6 runs less than the other but it is obvious who the better batsman is. it is a light exaggeration coz imran was not that far behind as samraweera is behind laxman. but still i dont know how else to ask you to throw those stats away and look at the top quality knocks kapil played (at least 5) with the top quality knocks imran played (close to zero) in tests.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
but still i dont know how else to ask you to throw those stats away and look at the top quality knocks kapil played (at least 5) with the top quality knocks imran played (close to zero) in tests.
That might be stretching it. Imran was no Bradman with the bat but he was no Courtney Walsh either. As I said earlier that he did save a few matches and against India 1978 he and Javed knocked off 116 runs in the final session of the match (in karachi IIRC..not sure though) in 18 or 20 overs. Imran really took Bedi to the cleaners in that match. A few matches in Australia ensured that Pak ended up at least drawing those matches. And against the West Indies in 88??? At least the final match in 90-91 WI-Pak series (it was a gun series) Imran had an excellent all round final match and had there been a few more overs might have actually won it with the bat too. He did end up saving it with the bat for Pakistan though.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I don't think that's an apt comparison. Samaraweera's averages more because he started his career in the 00s whereas Laxman earlier. He also has a large number of matches against the minnows of his time.

Aside from that it's because Samaraweera has a huge question on his away performances where Laxman does not. Ironically, this is the opposite with regards to Kapil and Imran as Imran has the better away record by far - and has actually played most of his career away from home.

Kapil may have had some more memorable knocks, I just don't think that makes him Imran's equal with the bat.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't think that's an apt comparison. Samaraweera's averages more because he started his career in the 00s whereas Laxman earlier. He also has a large number of matches against the minnows of his time.

Aside from that it's because Samaraweera has a huge question on his away performances where Laxman does not. Ironically, this is the opposite with regards to Kapil and Imran as Imran has the better away record by far - and has actually played most of his career away from home.

Kapil may have had some more memorable knocks, I just don't think that makes him Imran's equal with the bat.
I think 6 50s with a few red inks is NOT better than 2 100s and a couple of 20s with NO red inks.. The latter is giving you a much better chance to win the 2 said games than the former has done throughout the 6.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
What is red inks?

Also, their 50/100 rate per innings is practically the same. If anything, Imran is more likely to score a 100 than Kapil is.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Imran: 50s; 18/126 = 14.3% - 100s; 6/126 = 4.8%
Kapil: 50s; 27/184 = 14.7% - 100s; 8/184 = 4.3%
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Yeah what is red inks??? And 6 50s sounds somewhat consistent than 2 100s. Although I guess the context is important.
 

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