Best ever ODI bowler

[Ikki]

Why? What does it matter if you're good at making 3 maidens and then conceding 24 in the next 3 overs you've ruined your work. It's like arguing that a batsman being able to score 50s more than another batsman is better despite having a lower average overall.

The difference between their ERs is negligible but their SRs are in different worlds. It's simply not close. I'd rather have a bowler who concedes 2-3 more runs per match but is far more likely to take a wicket.

 

[Ikki]

You just can't stand the fact that Murali emerges better on any measure, can you?

What? I am the one who conceded Murali is better than Warne in this aspect. I disagreed with it meaning he is better overall, however.

Yet you are the one who can't concede that a bowler who is more than 11(!) balls faster to a wicket isn't better than one who is only slightly better in ER. Per your own 'analysis' Murali is in with no more than a good shout against Saqlain. So stop creating goalposts then shifting them. On that account Ashley Giles is better than Murali too.

 

[vcs]

You just can't stand the fact that Murali emerges better on any measure, can you?

His point is that performances vs. India is not the be all and end all of rating a bowler.

 

[ankitj]

What? I am the one who conceded Murali is better than Warne in this aspect. I disagreed with it meaning he is better overall, however.

Yet you are the one who can't concede that a bowler who is more than 11(!) balls faster to a wicket isn't better than one who is only slightly better in ER. Per your own 'analysis' Murali is in with no more than a good shout against Saqlain. So stop creating goalposts then shifting them. On that account Ashley Giles is better than Murali too.

As I said in my previous post I am ready to concede. You brought in Ashley Giles into the discussion which makes it ridiculous. If he had overall success comparable to Murali, Saqlain or Warne against all other teams, he would be admissible in the argument.

On maidens, you could see what that could also translate to in terms of 10 over spells of less than say 35 or more than 55 runs.

Chill out. I am not in mood of a verbal warfare.

 

[Ikki]

Because you conveniently bring that stat to imply such a thing as fact. If you had said "this criteria for me is important and is the reason why I rate them Murali ahead", who could disagree? Warne got shellacked by India; it's impressive his figures are still comparable despite it.

For me, statistically Saqlain looks the best if you're going down that route.

 

[Furball]

Shane Warne is certainly a good shout. But will not go beyond being a good shout. Couldn't resist pulling Warne, Murali and Saqlain's records against, ahem, the best players of spin

		[B]Span		Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	Ave	Econ	SR	4	5[/B]
Murali v India	1993-2010	62	58	541.3	28	2313	74	7/30	31.25	4.27	43.9	0	1
Warne v India	1994-2001	18	18	162.2	2	844	15	3/38	56.26	5.19	64.9	0	0
Saqlainv India	1996-2000	36	34	307.2	14	1390	57	5/45	24.38	4.52	32.3	2	1

Notice the number of maidens that Warne has bowled.

How is that relevant when looking at their merits as ODI bowlers? India weren't a top ODI side during Saqlain and Warne's careers.

 

[ankitj]

His point is that performances vs. India is not the be all and end all of rating a bowler.

Ya but it is the toughest challenge for spinners. Eng, SA, NZ etc are awfully inept against good spin bowling. When splitting great cricketers, performances against the toughest team do become a discriminator for me.

 

[NasserFan207]

I reckon Warne struggled with the slowness of the Indian pitches more than anything. He'd been brought up on bouncy surfaces with fast turn. He could turn it anywhere obviously, but slow turn was what damaged him.

He was worked also out by certain great Indian batsman, but that doesn't discount his performances against other sides.

 

[Cevno]

I think it's like Tendulkar vs. Richards in ODIs, close enough but most people would take Viv. Ideally, you'd have both.

Really?

We had a poll and it was pretty much tied i believe.

 

[Cevno]

Saqlain was pretty much on par for me with Murali as a ODI bowler till his hiatus.

His ODI exploits are really underrated because of his test performances compared to Warne/Murali.

Perhaps Murali wins it on longevity but there is not a wide margin between them,

 

[vcs]

Really?

We had a poll and it was pretty much tied i believe.

Don't remember the poll results, but I think it is generally agreed that Richards was further ahead of his contemporaries in ODI cricket than Tendulkar is ahead of his. Also he has the WC final and some other amazing knocks.

Then again, Tendulkar has his insane weight of runs and longevity, though he also had the opportunity of playing a lot more ODI cricket than Richards. Both have some unique things going for them.

I'd say Tendulkar in the '90s was the closest anyone has ever come to Richards-like ODI batting since Richards himself. Amla is looking pretty sensational in recent times though.

 

[smash84]

Saqlain was pretty much on par for me with Murali as a ODI bowler till his hiatus.

His ODI exploits are really underrated because of his test performances compared to Warne/Murali.

Perhaps Murali wins it on longevity but there is not a wide margin between them,

I would agree.

 

[smash84]

If it was only about performances against India, Aaqib Javed would probably be the greatest ODI bowler of all time. The ****er feasted on us.

lol:lol

I would say that improving one's game against top quality opposition is definitely a big big plus point and India are much better players of spin than most other teams.

But Saqlain striking almost 2 overs faster than Murali is phenomenal. TBF to Saqlain, for a time, he was indeed one of the best ODI bowlers ever.

 

[Cevno]

I would agree.

But then why did you post this?

Murali has been the best spinner in ODIs without doubt and there is daylight between him and the rest of the spinners but I am not sure Murali was as good in the death overs as Wasim IMO. Did Murali always bowl in the last 6 to 8 overs??? I remember a lot of matches where he usually didn't bowl in the last 6-8 overs. I am not sure though since he has played a lot of ODIs.Can somebody shed a bit more light on that?

 

[smash84]

But then why did you post this?

Sorry I had just woken up after barely 3 hours of sleep. Didn't see the last line of his post. The key there is hiatus. After Saqlain got found out he was taken to the cleaners. Not the same with Murali. And Saqlain got found out in 6 years so longevity was not his strength. It was good while it lasted. Or I should say VERY good while it lasted but it didn't last for too long I guess.

And I did mention elsewhere that at his peak Saqlain was probably a better bowler than even Murali in ODIs but it's not just about peaks right.

 

[ankitj]

lol:lol

I would say that improving one's game against top quality opposition is definitely a big big plus point and India are much better players of spin than most other teams.

But Saqlain striking almost 2 overs faster than Murali is phenomenal. TBF to Saqlain, for a time, he was indeed one of the best ODI bowlers ever.

Indeed. It also makes for good memory how Tendulkar took it almost as a personal battle against Saqlain and was hell bent on attacking him. Remember the 99 tri-series. Tendulkar came down the pitch to Saqlain on first or second ball that he faced from him in every single match

 

[smash84]

Indeed. It also makes for good memory how Tendulkar took it almost as a personal battle against Saqlain and was hell bent on attacking him. Remember the 99 tri-series. Tendulkar came down the pitch to Saqlain on first or second ball that he faced from him in every single match

epic battles those b/w saqlain and tendulkar.

 

[smash84]

Incidentally Wasim was for some reason quite ordinary against England. In 32 ODIs against them he averaged over 35.

 

[vcs]

Did the job against them in the biggest match of all, though. So it doesn't really matter much.

 

[smash84]

Did the job against them in the biggest match of all, though. So it doesn't really matter much.

Yes. Apparently that was the only performance of note against them.