Kane Williamson

[Prince EWS]

I love you when you make posts like these. Nail. Head. Hit it.



True, though Jesse Ryder had a good start to his test career.

Usually =/= Always.

I think it's because the most talented players tend to get picked before their time and subsequently fail, while players who aren't really Test standard get called in on the back of excellent form, start well in a purple patch and then return to the mean.

There are exceptions to this of course - Ryder was held back because of his attitude, fitness etc and ironically it probably helped him. Sinclair contradicts basically everything I just said, too, but he's a walking contradiction as it is.

 

[Flem274*]

True that, now you mention it. Ryder was scoring runs for fun since he was 20, Bracewell just refused him because of his attitude (quite rightly).

The only other batsmen off the top of my head who came in and did well and carried on are Nathan Astle and Jacob Oram.

 

[robelinda]

Usually =/= Always.

I think it's because the most talented players tend to get picked before their time and subsequently fail, while players who aren't really Test standard get called in on the back of excellent form, start well in a purple patch and then return to the mean.

There are exceptions to this of course - Ryder was held back because of his attitude, fitness etc and ironically it probably helped him. Sinclair contradicts basically everything I just said, too, but he's a walking contradiction as it is.

Yeah Ryder is a serious talent, when he batted 3 in Australia I thought he looked really tight and calm, he really could be an all time great NZ batsman, doesnt appear to have any glaring technical issues, unlike say McIntosh.

 

[Howsie]

What I find rather ironic is that he's adamant Williamson is to raw of a batsmen to become anything special, an all time great for example. Yet, he's probably the most accomplished player to come into the New Zealand team in a very long, long time, and he's only just turned 20.

No I did not. But batsman do not change that greatly depending on where they play.

Poor batsmen don't, inexperienced players usually won't either. It's the ones that do so that usually go pretty far in there careers. You keep bringing up certain shots that he's yet to play - the pull shot, the coverdrive etc, do you know the one thing he didn't do once during his entire debut innings, come down the pitch to the spinners. Here you have a player who has made a name for himself for the way in which he gets down the track to play spinners back here in New Zealand and yet on test debut in India he doesn't do it once. You could put that down to one of two things:

1. He didn't trust his ability to do so against better spinners.
2. After spending the best part of two days in the field and seeing a few of the Indian batsmen get out to balls that held up on the slow surface he decided to put that shot away and try and play the bowling as late as possible instead.

After seeing him bat in the second innings of the second test I'd like to think it was the former, because he didn't have a problem attempting it on the faster track of Hyderabad.

 

[Shri]

People should be banned if they post a link to a thread in pc.net.

 

[_Ed_]

TumTum doesn't judge players by what they score though. He'll claim that if he watched Hayden play those Tests he would've correctly predicted the rest of his career based on his technique, placement, shot selection etc. You can't disprove what he's saying, even though it's clearly egotistical bull****.

True, but I think Hayden had some glaring technical issues when he first took the step up to Test level, and his opponents (South Africa, I think?) ruthlessly exposed them.

Hayden was able to iron those out.

TumTum seems to think batsmen can't work on their techniques and correct flaws.

 

[Bahnz]

On the back of all this, I'm now totally predicting that Kane will finish his career with an average of 37.

 

[robelinda]

Hayden wasnt all that bad when he started, just needed a bit of time to feel like he belonged. The only main area he changed was his technique against spin. He always stayed a mega driver of the ball down the ground, but cut out the cut shot for most of his later years. Was always strong on the short ball from the early days, but I remember him being not great at taking singles and getting bogged down, and not having a great cover drive, he just waited for straight balls to bang down the ground. Even in one day cricket for Australia early on in 93/94 he got bogged down way too much, 20 off 70 odd balls in one match, he was a bit stiff in the front leg.

Sa and WI in 96 and 97 got Hayden out mostly around off stump, Pollock moving it away and getting slips catches off defensive prods, Ambrose got him a few times too, so too Walsh during his ton at Adelaide, but he was caught 2 times off a no ball for both of them!

 

[TumTum]

TumTum seems to think batsmen can't work on their techniques and correct flaws.

It is as if I have been talking to a wall all this time.

I have never said batsmen can't correct or adjust their technique. I have already said Kane has a great technique. His problem is timing & gap-finding ability, which is much much much harder to improve and is mostly a natural talent which you develop at a very early age.

 

[_Ed_]

But you treat this gap-finding ability as if it's a constant.

I regularly see a player's gap-finding ability vary within the course of a single session of play.

 

[TumTum]

But you treat this gap-finding ability as if it's a constant.

I regularly see a player's gap-finding ability vary within the course of a single session of play.

True, but with Kane it remained pretty constant in the first 2 Tests. He is much better at finding gaps against the spinners.

 

[Prince EWS]

It is as if I have been talking to a wall all this time.

I have never said batsmen can't correct or adjust their technique. I have already said Kane has a great technique. His problem is timing & gap-finding ability, which is much much much harder to improve and is mostly a natural talent which you develop at a very early age.

I just flat out disagree that placement is a natural talent. It comes with practice, experience and refinement usually. He plays with soft hands, which definitely helps in this regard.

 

[_Ed_]

I just flat out disagree that placement is a natural talent. It comes with practice, experience and refinement usually. He plays with soft hands, which definitely helps in this regard.

And it comes and goes with form and confidence.

 

[TumTum]

I just flat out disagree that placement is a natural talent. It comes with practice, experience and refinement usually. He plays with soft hands, which definitely helps in this regard.

I'm fine with that if you don't agree.

But I will say that soft hands doesn't exactly relate to timing. It definitely helps, but not for Kane it seems.

 

[Prince EWS]

I'm fine with that if you don't agree.

But I will say that soft hands doesn't exactly relate to timing. It definitely helps, but not for Kane it seems.

Timing's different. I was talking about placement, specifically.

 

[TumTum]

And it comes and goes with form and confidence.

True, but you can see batsmen timing and placing a ball perfectly even if they are out of form at one part of their innings. I don't get that impression from Kane at all.

@Pews, I can't see how soft hands are in any way related to placement. Sure if you are looking to guide to 3rd man but...

Pretty sure even if you go really hard at the ball, you can still place it.

 

[Prince EWS]

True, but you can see batsmen timing and placing a ball perfectly even if they are out of form at one part of their innings. I don't get that impression from Kane at all.

@Pews, I can't see how soft hands are in any way related to placement. Sure if you are looking to guide to 3rd man but...

Pretty sure even if you go really hard at the ball, you can still place it.

If you play with soft hands you can play the ball later and manoeuvre it into the area you like, rather than just hitting a textbook shot down the line of the ball straight to where an orthodox fielder would be.

 

[TumTum]

If you play with soft hands you can play the ball later and manoeuvre it into the area you like, rather than just hitting a textbook shot down the line of the ball straight to where an orthodox fielder would be.

Or you can hit a shot aggressively whilst knowing exactly where you are hitting it.... Similarly play with soft hands straight to a fielder. Don't understand your argument tbh.

Also soft hands doesn't mean playing the ball later. I think that is just called "playing late". You can play late with hard hands as well..

 

[vic_orthdox]

Soft hands also allow players to take the pace off the ball, and increase chances of singles; especially for the drop and run.

 

[TumTum]

Soft hands also allow players to take the pace off the ball, and increase chances of singles; especially for the drop and run.

Agreed. But if you are going to be a successful Test match batsman, you need the timing and placement as well.