*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[smash84]

Don't know if the stats will back me up but I felt even more scared when Dizzy came on to bowl in India than McG.

In India,

McGrath - 33 wickets in 8 matches @ 21.30
Gillespie - 33 wickets in 7 matches @ 21.72

Scary stuff really.

Will agree that the general feeling when Warne came on to bowl was relief. That definitely wasn't the case with Murali, He didn't get me Donald/McG scared, but commanded respect.

I am not sure but I think even Michael Kasparowicz seemed to pose more of a threat to the Indian batsmen than Warne did. Warne seemed to be easy pickings for them.

 

[Shri]

I have never ever been worried seeing a leggie bowl against India, I feel happy when they are told to bowl. Off spinners make me yawn. Hauritz makes me sleep. Thats about the only reactions spinners stir in me. I mean the non sc spinners. Unless it is waterboy batting.

 

[smash84]

I have never ever been worried seeing a leggie bowl against India, I feel happy when they are told to bowl. Off spinners make me yawn. Hauritz makes me sleep. Thats about the only reactions spinners stir in me. Unless it is waterboy batting.

I don't know Shri but for some part of his career Saqlain did pose some threat to the Indian batsmen. although it was mainly in the ODIs. He played very few tests against them (but had one superb series in India).

Although his last series was terrible and he had become a very ordinary bowler by then.

 

[Shri]

I don't know Shri but for some part of his career Saqlain did pose some threat to the Indian batsmen. although it was mainly in the ODIs. He played very few tests against them (but had one superb series in India).

Although his last series was terrible and he had become a very ordinary bowler by then.

I should have said non SC spinners.

 

[smash84]

I should have said non SC spinners.

too late....

 

[vcs]

Imagine a peak Sehwag against Warne... could have gotten ugly for Warnie.

 

[smash84]

Imagine a peak Sehwag against Warne... could have gotten ugly for Warnie.

lol.....

tbh I would have really liked Sehwag to have played in the 1990s.

The attacks were awesome back then. Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, McGrath, Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar etc

The quality of the bowling was amazing back then. Would have loved to see Sehwag play against those guys.

Hell it would have been great to watch him even against Amir and Asif. Why did those 2...........aarrgghhh

 

[Jono]

Wait now Warne was injured every time he bowled to India?

Haha it really is best not to go there. You will find the replies astonishing.

 

[vcs]

may be. but it kills me that sachin's record against SA and Pak - both home and away - is not too hot. and that viv didn't do anything significant in NZ and that he was merely good against Pak. Lillee was not the same force outside australia and england. these are giants of the game who did not dominate the game in certain situations as much as they would have liked. but it is what makes them human and their achievements in other conditions more glorious. i dont look for excuses when i see these gaps in their resumes because i know they are champions nevertheless despite these black marks. the same holds true for warne and his stats in windies and against india.

This is a quality post.

 

[vcs]

Haha it really is best not to go there. You will find the replies astonishing.

Out of interest, does anyone who watched the series remember whether Warne was bowling his full repertoire of deliveries (flippers, sliders etc.) against India in '98? It's so far back that I can't remember and I was too young to appreciate all those intricacies anyway.

 

[smash84]

Out of interest, does anyone who watched the series remember whether Warne was bowling his full repertoire of deliveries (flippers, sliders etc.) against India in '98? It's so far back that I can't remember and I was too young to appreciate all those intricacies anyway.

The only thing that I remember is that Sachin was showing the full face of the bat to most of Warne's deliveries and the ball was flying all over the park.

 

[Ikki]

Better player or better bowler???? Better player we know but is he a better bowler???

I made the distinction that he is a comparable bowler for sure - meaning I have no problem if people rate him better. Do I rate him better? Not sure; as I am not sure it really comes down to that one fact.

Wait now Warne was injured every time he bowled to India?

Couldn't agree more with everyone who says that Murali was the far bigger threat (though some less fancied spinners have done even more damage than him..) to India but that's blindingly obvious anyway.

No, just during the late 90s early 00s he had several breakdowns. He needed to have shoulder and finger reconstruction in this time. His first series in the early 90s he was just green and it took him about a year to become the Warne that we know. His last series in 04 was probably his best one in terms of being fit and in form (and statistically), however, he even got injured in that one and missed the last test where Hauritz and Clarke ran merry.

India would have played him well regardless, in all likelihood, but he certainly would not have been that bad - or as bad as his figures currently suggest.

 

[Top_Cat]

Out of interest, does anyone who watched the series remember whether Warne was bowling his full repertoire of deliveries (flippers, sliders etc.) against India in '98? It's so far back that I can't remember and I was too young to appreciate all those intricacies anyway.

In '98, was ripping the ball miles. Problem was it didn't matter.

Don't think Warne suffered an assault quite like Sidhu hit him with before or after that series. I mean, when the oppo's opening batter is going after you and then after he gets out, you have Azhar and Sachin to bowl to, that's pretty tough going.

 

[smash84]

I made the distinction that he is a comparable bowler for sure - meaning I have no problem if people rate him better. Do I rate him better? Not sure; as I am not sure it really comes down to that one fact.



No, just during the late 90s early 00s he had several breakdowns. He needed to have shoulder and finger reconstruction in this time. His first series in the early 90s he was just green and it took him about a year to become the Warne that we know. His last series in 04 was probably his best one in terms of being fit and in form (and statistically), however, he even got injured in that one and missed the last test where Hauritz and Clarke ran merry.

India would have played him well regardless, in all likelihood, but he certainly would not have been that bad - or as bad as his figures currently suggest.

Ikki you might as well argue for Shoaib Akhtar being the best ever fast bowler were it not for his injuries.

The fact that Warne did get badly injured probably meant that he was a Shoaib Akhtar of the spinners in a sense and Murali was probably McGrath. I know I am exaggerating the comparison by a fair bit but those Warne injuries don't earn Warne any brownie points. Just as getting injured at the peak of his career doesn't earn Imran any brownie points nor do they earn Shoaib any for being injured for the most part of his career.

 

[Maximus0723]

O'Reilly better than both.

 

[Prince EWS]

O'Reilly better than both.

AWTA really.

 

[Sanz]

Bagapath, numbers can indicate that Mohammad Yousuf is a better batsman than Viv Richards. It really depends what numbers you look at. A 50 on a minefield =\= a 50 on a flat track. You know this yet even though you're a fine poster you have a blind spot in this regard for Warne.

Avada, no one said Warne's away record v Windies > myrtle's away record v Windies. Geez you're a crap poster.

Yeah when the numbers don't work in your favor you start looking for objectivity and also start name calling.

So much for you to accuse others of having a blind spot when you yourself have a soft spot for the Drug Cheat.

 

[ankitj]

O'Reilly better than both.

If it was not for the number of wickets Murali and Warne have taken, I would agree. Statistically, O'Reilly and Laker stand out among spinners. And Grimmet follows after them. Before 1960, the spinners could get stats as good as fast bowlers. It's only a relatively recent phenomena that great spinners almost never have as good averages as great or merely good fast bowlers.

 

[bagapath]

O'Reilly better than both.

quite possibly. i liked ian chappell's interview on selecting the middle order for the cricinfo all time XI; especially the part in which he says he would have preferred lara in place of sachin because a left hander would have added a little more to that batting line up; but he immediately follows up this sentence with "but at this level, with the kind of talent these players had, these things don't mean much". that is what i pretty much feel about lara vs sachin or murali vs warne. on a given day warne or murali could bowl out any opposition on their own with equal ease. so could oreilly. there is very little to split players of their caliber and it is next to impossible to rank one above the other on their effectiveness (stats) alone. only individual preferences decide how you rank them.

for example, the 10 greatest fast bowlers of the last 30 years - lillee, holding, hadlee, imran, marshall, ambrose, donald, akram, mcgrath, waqar - could be ranked in any order. similarly the five greatest spinners of all time - oreilly, warne, murali, grimmett, laker - could be ordered any which way. warne usually comes on top because of his style and probably due to his batting and fielding as well. also, we like leg spinners more than offies. I rank him first for these same reasons. otherwise, there is no way he is better than others in terms of numbers alone.

 

[smash84]

quite possibly. i liked ian chappell's interview on selecting the middle order for the cricinfo all time XI; especially the part in which he says he would have preferred lara in place of sachin because a left hander would have added a little more to that batting line up; but he immediately follows up this sentence with "but at this level, with the kind of talent these players had, these things don't mean much". that is what i pretty much feel about lara vs sachin or murali vs warne. on a given day warne or murali could bowl out any opposition on their own with equal ease. so could oreilly. there is very little to split players of their caliber and it is next to impossible to rank one above the other on their effectiveness (stats) alone. only individual preferences decide how you rank them.

for example, the 10 greatest fast bowlers of the last 30 years - lillee, holding, hadlee, imran, marshall, ambrose, donald, akram, mcgrath, waqar - could be ranked in any order. similarly the five greatest spinners of all time - oreilly, warne, murali, grimmett, laker - could be ordered any which way. warne usually comes on top because of his style and probably due to his batting and fielding as well. also, we like leg spinners more than offies. I rank him first for these same reasons. otherwise, there is no way he is better than others in terms of numbers alone.

Well said. Since I mostly watch cricket for good bowling I would say that nothing beats watching a good leggie bamboozle the batsman except a fast bowler steaming in and making the batsman jump around in the crease.