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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
averaging 43 against 45 is not "better" ikki. both were toothless in india. at least murali has his ODI performances and his record in SL to calm his future grandchildren down. Warney's grand children are not going to be nice to his grand pa if they ever see his stats against india. this "he was better in india" argument doesnt work at all.
AWTA (learning CW's abbreviations). And for such small samples, it is worth looking at number of outstanding performances. Here is one where Murali ran havoc:

2nd Test: India v Sri Lanka at Delhi, Dec 10-14, 2005 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

He got everyone of India's big four in that game.
 
Great to see the excuses now-injuries,bad form and mama's pills :laugh:

Ftr,Murali's record in India was better before his last tour,much better than warne's in india.

Murali's overall record against ind is much superior and ind feared murali far more than they feared warne,who got smashed by everyone.

I love how a bowling ave of 39>23 :laugh:
 

smash84

The Tiger King
It isn't. Murali's figures aren't bastardized because of one series where he was not the same bowler.

Smalishah84; that's true but with Warne a concession should be made. Warne's shoulder and finger injuries/operations at that time rendered him a very different bowler. It took time for him to recover. As Warne himself said; he had to learn to bowl all over again. The muscle memory he had regarding his action had changed. To paraphrase what he said; when you bowl a good ball you know what it feels like on release - for Warne that feeling had changed as he had to adapt to his new body (shoulder/fingers).

He lacked a lot of control in said period and was getting hit around. He could barely bowl the flipper which was one of his most lethal deliveries because of the forever deformed finger. Post injuries Warne pretty much relied on a standard leg break and variating speed, drift and pitch of the ball. Which for me makes it even more impressive how incredible he was in the 00s.

Because of the above; he simply was not the same bowler in that period.
He could have come later on after practicing a little more.

At any rate Ikki if you must make a concession for Warne then you must make a concession for almost every other bowler. Consider the case of Imran. He got some of the worst medical advice because he had a stress fracture and should have taken complete rest. But the doctors asked him to play on a little bit and said things would be fine. Things didn't turn out to be fine. So Imran lost out and it wasn't even his own fault.
 

bagapath

International Captain
Because of the above; he simply was not the same bowler in that period. These were not ordinary injuries to merit the standard response. It's telling that he was having problems against teams he never had problems against before or after this period. It didn't affect his NZ record enough but it did his away-WI record since he had only played one other away series against them. His India record is shot to hell because he played all but 2 of his series against them in this period also. Which is why him still being better than Murali there statistically says not much good about Murali in India.
it didnt affect his record against india either. it was ****ed up any way.

see, ikki. all i have been saying is that warne is statistically inferior to murali. you are saying he is not. but all you have managed to do is offer excuses wherever his numbers are weaker than murali's; thats all. and u r also saying he is better than murali in england. probably... that is why i choose him overall against murali. but there is no way his stats are better than murali's in england. or in west indies or new zealand or pakistan. make up your mind now. you either stand your ground and say his numbers, pure numbers, are better than murali's. (you better not because you will lose the argument easily) or say his numbers are not better than murali's but he was a better bowler and his stats got screwed because of injuries at the wrong time etc etc. no one can compare their stats and give it to warne just because he bowled with injuries. either discuss stats or go for contextual analysis. i prefer warne but i can see that murali's stats are better. if you do, too, this thread will be dead.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
He could have come later on after practicing a little more.

At any rate Ikki if you must make a concession for Warne then you must make a concession for almost every other bowler. Consider the case of Imran. He got some of the worst medical advice because he had a stress fracture and should have taken complete rest. But the doctors asked him to play on a little bit and said things would be fine. Things didn't turn out to be fine. So Imran lost out and it wasn't even his own fault.
Well I can only use my judgement in these matters. If others don't accept these kinds of circumstances it doesn't matter to me. I didn't know that about Imran. With exceptional injuries these considerations should be paid.

FTR, this is one of the things that makes me rate Lillee so highly. He was a fire and brimstone fast bowler but suffered to stress fractures in his back. He trained himself up again and turned into an accurate bowler who used cutters and still had large success. These comebacks, to me personally, mean more than if a player had no problem at all.
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Bagapath, numbers can indicate that Mohammad Yousuf is a better batsman than Viv Richards. It really depends what numbers you look at. A 50 on a minefield =\= a 50 on a flat track. You know this yet even though you're a fine poster you have a blind spot in this regard for Warne.

Avada, no one said Warne's away record v Windies > myrtle's away record v Windies. Geez you're a crap poster.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
Bagapath, numbers can indicate that Mohammad Yousuf is a better batsman than Viv Richards. It really depends what numbers you look at. A 50 on a minefield =\= a 50 on a flat track. You know this yet even though you're a fine poster you have a blind spot in this regard for Warne.

Avada, no one said Warne's away record v Windies > myrtle's away record v Windies. Geez you're a crap poster.
of course, mate. richards is a better batsman. but i can see that yousuff has better numbers than viv. you bring in the context afterwards.

though the gap is not this huge - as in the case of richards and MoYo, murali does have better stats than warne too.
 
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bagapath

International Captain
You know this yet even though you're a fine poster you have a blind spot in this regard for Warne.
may be. but it kills me that sachin's record against SA and Pak - both home and away - is not too hot. and that viv didn't do anything significant in NZ and that he was merely good against Pak. Lillee was not the same force outside australia and england. these are giants of the game who did not dominate the game in certain situations as much as they would have liked. but it is what makes them human and their achievements in other conditions more glorious. i dont look for excuses when i see these gaps in their resumes because i know they are champions nevertheless despite these black marks. the same holds true for warne and his stats in windies and against india.
 
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morgieb

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I didn't know that some of you ****s could bowl well with injuries. :p

If fit, Warne most likely would've bowled like 04/05 in India - which is OK without being brilliant.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Well I can only use my judgement in these matters. If others don't accept these kinds of circumstances it doesn't matter to me. I didn't know that about Imran. With exceptional injuries these considerations should be paid.

FTR, this is one of the things that makes me rate Lillee so highly. He was a fire and brimstone fast bowler but suffered to stress fractures in his back. He trained himself up again and turned into an accurate bowler who used cutters and still had large success. These comebacks, to me personally, mean more than if a player had no problem at all.
Now that you know this Ikki would you rate Imran as a better bowler than Marshall or Hadlee?

may be. but it kills me that sachin's record against SA and Pak - both home and away - is not too hot. and that viv didn't do anything significant in NZ and that he was merely good against Pak. Lillee was not the same force outside australia and england. these are giants of the game who did not dominate the game in certain situations as much as they would have liked. but it is what makes them human and their achievements in other conditions more glorious. i dont look for excuses when i see these gaps in their resumes because i know they are champions nevertheless despite these black marks. the same holds true for warne and his stats in windies and against india.
Well said
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Now that you know this Ikki would you rate Imran as a better bowler than Marshall or Hadlee?
I already think he is comparable to them. Look at the comparison between their bowling in the 80s; Imran was imperious and fantastic against the best batting attack by far. Without a doubt he is a better player than both though.

Bagapath; what I have highlighted is not to show for example that Warne did well when he didn't. In fact, it's exactly as you say; stats with context. Like: Warne has better figures than Murali in India; and this is in spite of the fact that he was never fully fit/peak form against them. Or Warne has worse home stats than Murali because one had the worst spin conditions and the other the best. I have not made up any stat to back up a fact that doesn't exist.

If I have, you can point that out to me.
 
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ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
That the only laboured 5-wicket haul. Nothing in it indeed. Only valuable wicket in that was of Sehwag. And it took him 42 overs to get his 6. I remember watching that match. Warne didn't trigger any collapse.

And given that there isn't much to choose between Indian and Sri Lankan wickets for spinners (which you will of course deny), at least 5 collapses in at least 3 tests triggered by Murali, don't leave much to the argument of who had India in more trouble. And as an Indian supporter, I can say (and most Indian supporters will agree) that Warne never made us nervous, in fact only made us feel relieved when he came on to bowl.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
Yeah, always knew we were safe for the over when he came on to bowl to our batsmen. Always felt nervous when McGrath and the other quicks bowled.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I already think he is comparable to them. Look at the comparison between their bowling in the 80s; Imran was imperious and fantastic against the best batting attack by far. Without a doubt he is a better player than both though.

Bagapath; what I have highlighted is not to show for example that Warne did well when he didn't. In fact, it's exactly as you say; stats with context. Like: Warne has better figures than Murali in India; and this is in spite of the fact that he was never fully fit/peak form against them. Or Warne has worse home stats than Murali because one had the worst spin conditions and the other the best. I have not made up any stat to back up a fact that doesn't exist.

If I have, you can point that out to me.
Ikki by this logic the Pakistani bowlers viz 2 Ws and Imran should be the best bowlers ever because they bowled under the worst conditions ever for fast bowling. Lillee played one 3 test series in Pakistan and was wicketless in that series. He hated the sub-continent wickets because they were terrible for fast bowling. And he is on record for saying that IIRC. So it turns out that Lillee had one of the best conditions for fast bowling and Imran and the 2 Ws had the worst. Does that mean that Imran and the 2 Ws were all better than Lillee or even McGrath who has a 30+ average in Pakistan (the only place that McGrath has a 30+ average)???? I wouldn't say that because the statistics have to be seen in context

But the records of Imran and the 2 Ws in Australia are probably not that great hence you would have other bowlers probably being rated over them who were able to do better in Australia where you find bouncier wickets.

It all has to be seen in context.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
Imran was imperious and fantastic against the best batting attack by far. Without a doubt he is a better player than both though.

If I have, you can point that out to me.
Better player or better bowler???? Better player we know but is he a better bowler???
 

vcs

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Wait now Warne was injured every time he bowled to India?

Couldn't agree more with everyone who says that Murali was the far bigger threat (though some less fancied spinners have done even more damage than him..) to India but that's blindingly obvious anyway.
 

Teja.

Global Moderator
Yeah, always knew we were safe for the over when he came on to bowl to our batsmen. Always felt nervous when McGrath and the other quicks bowled.
Don't know if the stats will back me up but I felt even more scared when Dizzy came on to bowl in India than McG.

In India,

McGrath - 33 wickets in 8 matches @ 21.30
Gillespie - 33 wickets in 7 matches @ 21.72

Scary stuff really.

Will agree that the general feeling when Warne came on to bowl was relief. That definitely wasn't the case with Murali, He didn't get me Donald/McG scared, but commanded respect.
 

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