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***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Ah, okay. That explains why Hayden wasn't an All Time Great straight in his early stages. All the bowlers he faced initially were new to him, and so they made merry. Then he came back having figured their weaknesses out, and proceeded to expose them for the Green Track Bullies they were.
For a batsman to be considered really quality/ATG he needs to score againts a quality pace attacks in testing conditions instead of just on roads. Since thats the only time when a fast-bowler/pace attack is in his/their "domain" (greentop). Thus dominating him/the attack in his/their "domain" (a bowler friendly deck or conditions) is worth more than dominating the fast-bowler/attack good/great/world-class on a road.

All the post-war batsmen who have gotten the accolade of ATG have done this.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Very true. While they're still enjoyable, India/Pak matches these days don't elicit the same emotional intensity out of me as the one's from the '90s. Probably the over-exposure of India/Pak matches in the last decade has a lot to do with that.
Yeah, it used to be tense atmosphere in stadium and even in our halls where we watched the live coverage from. WC contests, the final of Asia cup, 3 Sahara cup series in Toronto. Awesome contests!
 
None of those innings fit the criteria of runs againts a quality pace attack on a helpul pitch or bowlers which could expose his technical flaws. Like the one which caused him to average 14 in SA 06/07, 10 in NZ 02/03 & 19 vs ENG 05/06.
Sehwag played one series against England in 02,averaged almost 40 with a ton.Do not make up stuff please

He played 2 tests on absolute green tops in NZ.Check the scores in that series.Anyway hard to hold this against Sehwag because that was quite early on in his career and he has improved a lot since then,esp since 07.

He has toured SA twice-did well in one and failed in the other.Big deal.

Hey,if fast bowlers struggle against Sehwag on flat pitches and get his wicket only when the ball is moving around,doesn't that make them green top bullies :ph34r:
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Sehwag played one series against England in 02,averaged almost 40 with a ton.Do not make up stuff please.
I'm not taking about that 2002 series in ENG. I was refering to the 2005/06 ENG tour to India where Sehwag averaged 19

He played 2 tests on absolute green tops in NZ.Check the scores in that series.Anyway hard to hold this against Sehwag because that was quite early on in his career and he has improved a lot since then,esp since 07.
Yea they where absolute greentops in that NZ series. But the two quality IND batsmen in Dravid & Tendy stood up & battled in those condtions although the Bond & co got on top of them in general. Unlike Sehwag who was a walking wicket.

IIRC also Tendy was in in the early stages of post 1990-2002 peak & in the early stages of his tennis elbow woes during that 02/03 series in NZ as well.

And :laugh:. Its funny how you are now going saying you are not to hold him averaging 10 in that series in NZ on the basis it was early in his career. When just a minute ago you people were championing his debut hundred (which was also early in his career) as sign he could play quality pace in bowler friendly conditons. Superb double standard this.

He has toured SA twice-did well in one and failed in the other.Big deal.
Its certainly a big deal. Since on his first tour he scored againts an average SA attack on a flat pitch. On his second tour he failed miserably againts a quality SA attack in bowler friendly conditions. So if he fails again in the upcoming series it will make consecutive series failures in SA againts quality SA attack.

Hey,if fast bowlers struggle against Sehwag on flat pitches and get his wicket only when the ball is moving around,doesn't that make them green top bullies :ph34r:
Well of course you right to you this (:ph34r:) emotion. Since you know deep down its a ridiculous point. But as i just said to another poster:


quote said:
For a batsman to be considered really quality/ATG he needs to score againts a quality pace attacks in testing conditions instead of just on roads. Since thats the only time when a fast-bowler/pace attack is in his/their "domain" (greentop). Thus dominating him/the attack in his/their "domain" (a bowler friendly deck or conditions) is worth more than dominating the fast-bowler/attack good/great/world-class on a road.

All the post-war batsmen who have gotten the accolade of ATG have done this.
Someone this obvious trend of cricket history seems alien to some CWers unfortunately.
 
I'm not taking about that 2002 series in ENG. I was refering to the 2005/06 ENG tour to India where Sehwag averaged 19
Great,so this series is being mentioned because he failed.Had he done well-"that was just in India,flat home pitches"


Yea they where absolute greentops in that NZ series. But the two quality IND batsmen in Dravid & Tendy stood up & battled in those condtions although the Bond & co got on top of them in general. Unlike Sehwag who was a walking wicket.

IIRC also Tendy was in in the early stages of post 1990-2002 peak & in the early stages of his tennis elbow woes during that 02/03 series in NZ as well.

And :laugh:. Its funny how you are now going saying you are not to hold him averaging 10 in that series in NZ on the basis it was early in his career. When just a minute ago you people were championing his debut hundred (which was also early in his career) as sign he could play quality pace in bowler friendly conditons. Superb double standard this.
If someone does well on debut/early in their career,it deserves praise.But if they have a bad series early on,it isn't the end of the world really.Who doesn't fail?!no double standards there at all.The series in question was a 2 test series played on absolute green tops like I said.I reckon those were among the most bowler friendly pitches in the last two decades.


Its certainly a big deal. Since on his first tour he scored againts an average SA attack on a flat pitch. On his second tour he failed miserably againts a quality SA attack in bowler friendly conditions. So if he fails again in the upcoming series it will make consecutive series failures in SA againts quality SA attack.
Yeah,as usual-flat pitch and average attack when he scores and the opposite if he doesn't.



Well of course you right to you this (:ph34r:) emotion. Since you know deep down its a ridiculous point. But as i just said to another poster:




Someone this obvious trend of cricket history seems alien to some CWers unfortunately.
Doesn't ans my question.Don't avoid it.
 
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I find it plain annoying how Sehwag's debut hundred in SA when India were 4 down for nothing is being belittled. It's one thing to think that a batsman is not great but totally another to not give one his due for any of his good knocks. Even average or merely good batsmen can play a few wonderful knocks (think Mark Waugh). Just say that Sehwag's debut hundred was good but he doesn't play those knocks often enough and that will sound less desperate.
I remember having a discussion about Sehwag's debut ton with aussie sometime back.He was shown match reports of that match mentioning that the ball was moving around on day 1...still doesn't want to accept it.

Even if Sehwag scores a ton in SA later this year,he will find something to discredit it.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Here's what I recall from Sehwag's debut ton. First session the ball was moving around quite a lot, bowlers werent that great but got through the Indian top order. No doubt the pitch got a LOT easier after lunch, ball stopped swinging, Sachin took over first then Sehwag came in and hit around an attack that was devoid of answers once the ball stopped moving. Team was in a tricky position and that counts for some, pitch might have been getting easier but the side was still 5 down when Sehwag came in, by the end of the day didnt India reach close to 400??? Pretty awesome last 3 hours of that days play. Sehwag was a normal batsman back then too, no trademark shots that he invented later after 2003, just hit bad balls for four, instead of now where there is almost no good balls to the man!!!!
 

Altaican

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I tend to remember stuff in cricket matches for long time too. For example, for the sheer impression left on my mind, I still rate Tendulkar's 90 against AUS in WC96 as one of his best 5 ODI knocks. Very controlled and dominating innings that when wickets were falling all around. It was a heartbreak (as it always used to be in 1990's) when he got out to wide ball by Mark Waugh.

Let's see how many people remember that innings :)
I would be impressed if you remember an innings with such enthu when your country or your country's favourite player was not involved in any way (just for the sheer joy of watching the game of cricket at the highest level, with an open mind). Most of the arguments/comparisons break out just for the reason that people watch their favourite player (most of the time, a player from their country) and judge his contemporaries/rivals by stats. People find it blasphemous to question Tendulkar's greatness against truly great fast bowlers at their peak in Test cricket, although stats do reflect that in a certain way, and yet they inadvertently try to rate (rival) batsmen not from their country or someone from the past using stats (like the bloke who did that with Viv Richards).

I am not saying that one shouldn't watch or enjoy their favourite team or player or that stats are irrelevant, but if only cricket fans broadened their vision beyond their country, they would be able to watch and enjoy many such classy innings, and this feverishness about rating other players through stats/records would decrease. Comparisons then would have more insight rather than choosing stats according to one's convenience.

Robelinda is a good example of a person with a broad vision :).

90s was a great time for cricket because several teams - Australia (from McGrath & Gillespie's debut in the mid-90s), Pakistan, South Africa and West Indies (till mid-90s), possessed great fast bowling attacks, in combination with the fact that there were quite a few attacking batsmen. Test cricket also became a lot more result oriented than it was earlier.

Some of the best innings that I remember during the time are :
  1. Gilchrist's 4th innings 149* against the 2Ws, Akhtar etc. at Hobart (this is by far the best Test innings I have followed live, never seen a batsman make an ATG bowling attack look like club-level bowling in Test match cricket, all the more incredible considering the match situation and the bowling conditions).
  2. Salim Malik's 74 & 71 at Faisalabad against the Windies in 90-91. A classy knock. Bowling attack of Ambrose, Bishop, Walsh (in their prime) and Marshall. Simply no respite for the batsmen. No weak bowler to target. Malik scored nearly 50% of his Team's runs in the match (at a very good SR). No other Pakistani batsman crossed 50 in either of the innings. Hooper & Richardson were also great in that series.
  3. Mark Waugh's classy 100 at Brisbane against Akram and Akhtar (in the same series as Gilchrist's knock noted above). Someone posted a video of this innings. It is a must-watch. Actually several of Mark Waugh's innings against great bowling attacks were classy in the 90s. Despite his stats, the comparison of him with Tendulkar, Lara during the 90s, was not an exaggeration. Anwar's knock in that match also was good.
  4. Gooch's 154* against the Windies at Headingley in 90-91.
  5. Aravinda De Silva's knocks against the Windies in the 97. He murdered poor Bishop :laugh:. A classy, under-rated batsman, with the attack attitude of Richards.
  6. Saeed Anwar's 118 against South Africa at Durban in 98. Another beautiful knock. He was looking very good in the entire series, was getting out to his own mistakes. Had so much time to play the ball and made batting (under very tough conditions) look so easy. Azhar Mehmood's brave centuries are remembered more in that series. Am very happy that knocks of both the players in that series made it to the Top-20 in Wisden's list of greatest Test innings.
  7. Lara's 132 against McGrath & co. in Perth in 96-97. One of his most under-rated Test knocks.
  8. Laxman's famous 281 (and Dravid's 180?) against McGrath & co. at Eden Gardens. A phenomenal innings. All Mark Waugh (or David Gower) fans should watch this innings. I remember McGrath was so frustrated at the end of a day's play (they could not take a wicket during the entire day) that he bowled a series of wide deliveries. Although not played in the 90s, I might as well include it :p.
  9. Lara's famous 213 against McGrath & co. When the Windies were tottering at 30+ runs for 4 wickets at the end of the first day's play, I was thinking "Here we go again..." (they had been bowled out for less than 100 in the previous innings). Fairytale stuff.
  10. Azhar's 100+ off 78 balls against South Africa in Eden Gardens in 1996. I remember Kumble scoring a brave 80+ in that match, although India lost it by a huge margin. That innings marked Azhar's 180 degree change in attitude when batting against ferocious bowling.

These are just some of what I remember off the top of my head right now. There are several others that I don't recall right now. Most of the above innings were attacking batsmanship against great fast bowling attacks.
 

Cruxdude

International Debutant
Just want to put some stuff in context for the NZ tour. Here are the Indian team averages in the Tests

R Dravid 2 4 0 131 76 32.75 38.19 - 1 2 -
SR Tendulkar 2 4 0 100 51 25.00 55.86 - 1 1 -
A Nehra 2 4 2 27 10* 13.50 103.84 - - - -
AB Agarkar 1 2 0 21 12 10.50 52.50 - - - -
V Sehwag 2 4 0 40 25 10.00 66.66 - - - -
Harbhajan Singh 2 4 0 39 20 9.75 75.00 - - 2 -
SC Ganguly 2 4 0 29 17 7.25 55.76 - - - -
Z Khan 2 4 0 28 19 7.00 58.33 - - 2 -
VVS Laxman 2 4 0 27 23 6.75 37.50 - - 1 -
PA Patel 2 4 0 26 10 6.50 20.96 - - 6 1
SB Bangar 2 4 0 21 12 5.25 25.00 - - - -
T Yohannan 1 2 2 8 8* - 88.88 - - - -

The same for the ODIs

V Sehwag 7 7 0 299 112 42.71 78.47 2 - 1 -
SS Das 1 1 0 30 30 30.00 50.00 - - - -
Yuvraj Singh 7 7 0 134 54 19.14 48.20 - 1 1 -
R Dravid 7 7 0 116 21 16.57 37.90 - - 8 -
Z Khan 7 7 2 74 34* 14.80 63.24 - - 1 -
VVS Laxman 3 3 0 39 20 13.00 40.62 - - 1 -
PA Patel 1 1 0 13 13 13.00 41.93 - - - -
SC Ganguly 7 7 0 58 23 8.28 42.02 - - 2 -
M Kaif 7 7 0 55 24 7.85 46.21 - - 4 -
A Kumble 3 3 0 23 21 7.66 27.71 - - - -
J Srinath 7 7 3 30 15 7.50 36.58 - - - -
Harbhajan Singh 2 2 0 14 14 7.00 77.77 - - - -
D Mongia 3 3 0 14 12 4.66 45.16 - - - -
A Nehra 6 5 4 3 2* 3.00 15.78 - - - -
AB Agarkar 3 3 0 6 6 2.00 37.50 - - 1 -
SB Bangar 3 3 0 6 4 2.00 37.50 - - 1 -
SR Tendulkar 3 3 0 2 1 0.66 6.89 - - - -
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
I tend to remember stuff in cricket matches for long time too. For example, for the sheer impression left on my mind, I still rate Tendulkar's 90 against AUS in WC96 as one of his best 5 ODI knocks. Very controlled and dominating innings that when wickets were falling all around. It was a heartbreak (as it always used to be in 1990's) when he got out to wide ball by Mark Waugh.

Let's see how many people remember that innings :)
Great match. Mark waugh got a super hundred batting first, in fact Mark Taylor played so great too, way better than he usually did, hit a massive six of Raju. I sure do remember that Sachin innings, it was the first i'd really seen him tee off vs Australia in an odi, that flat six off Shane Lee (?), and yes the wide ball that Waugh bowled and got Sachin stumped, the crowd was dead silent, and India flopped out of the match. Still have the whole match on video ball by ball.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Great match. Mark waugh got a super hundred batting first, in fact Mark Taylor played so great too, way better than he usually did, hit a massive six of Raju. I sure do remember that Sachin innings, it was the first i'd really seen him tee off vs Australia in an odi, that flat six off Shane Lee (?), and yes the wide ball that Waugh bowled and got Sachin stumped, the crowd was dead silent, and India flopped out of the match. Still have the whole match on video ball by ball.
Srinath wasn't it? Shot over cowie corner?

Tubby's 70-odd in the final was a great knock too. Was in good touch the whole tournament but in the final, he was ripping out all sorts of outrageous shots. Couldn't quite believe it was Taylor I was watching.
 
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robelinda

International Vice-Captain
Srinath wasn't it? Shot over cowie corner?

Tubby's 70-odd in the final was a great knock too. Was in good touch the whole tournament but in the final, he was ripping out all sorts of outrageous shots. Couldn't quite believe it was Taylor I was watching.
Nah it was off a left arm spinner, would bet my PRS that it was off Raju!!! Maybe its on you tube somewhere....
 

akilana

International 12th Man
incredible how people can't accept criticism of one of their favourite players. most people here question inzi, yusuf, jayawardene etc's records because of their lack of success in Australia, SA and England. why's it a crime when aussie doesn't rate sehwag at all? he has given reasons as to why he doesn't.
 

robelinda

International Vice-Captain
incredible how people can't accept criticism of one of their favourite players. most people here question inzi, yusuf, jayawardene etc's records because of their lack of success in Australia, SA and England. why's it a crime when aussie doesn't rate sehwag at all? he has given reasons as to why he doesn't.
Wouldnt it just be the most glorious sight to see Sehwag demolish Steyn and co this summer, boy it would be sweet. He is th ebest batsman in the world to watch when he's going, no-one bats like him. Sachin bats like a robot these days but Sehwag is a mix of Viv/Sachin/Gilly, and i hope he always remains that way.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Wouldnt it just be the most glorious sight to see Sehwag demolish Steyn and co this summer, boy it would be sweet. He is th ebest batsman in the world to watch when he's going, no-one bats like him. Sachin bats like a robot these days but Sehwag is a mix of Viv/Sachin/Gilly, and i hope he always remains that way.
Hope Steyn runs through India. Not only because it'll be funny, but because awesome pace bowling > awesome batting IMO
 

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