***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[Altaican]

Bloody oath. Gilly was insane. I recall a tour match in 96 , WA v WI at the WACA, Gilly was captain and peeled off a first day ton in blazing fashion, Kim Hughes said on commentary that Gilly was the cleanest hitter he had ever seen. Was a bit of a shock at the time but with the next few years it would be a standard comment about Gilly, so clean was his strokes.

Sadly a large number Gilchrist's innings are vastly under-rated (or rather don't receive as much hype). He, along with Malcolm Marshall, will be the first names in my ATXI.

Bishop was very very quick before his back injury. I do recall batsmen who faced Bishop (during the early 90s) and Waqar/Donald during the same time rated Bishop as quicker. He gave Robin Smith a torrid time and broke Indian opener Srikkanth's arm in his debut ODI series. After his comeback in 1995 from the back injury, he was a shadow of himself, and the stats clearly reflect that.

Bishop from 1989-93
Bishop from 1995-98

 

[robelinda]

Sadly a large number Gilchrist's innings are vastly under-rated (or rather don't receive as much hype). He, along with Malcolm Marshall, will be the first names in my ATXI.

Bishop was very very quick before his back injury. I do recall batsmen who faced Bishop (during the early 90s) and Waqar/Donald during the same time rated Bishop as quicker. He gave Robin Smith a torrid time and broke Indian opener Srikkanth's arm in his debut ODI series. After his comeback in 1995 from the back injury, he was a shadow of himself, and the stats clearly reflect that.

Bishop from 1989-93
Bishop from 1995-98

Yep, not just his stats, but you only had to watch his bowling- he looked a shadow of his former self, he was quite frightening in the early 90's as you say. Taller than Donald too, more bounce at very fast pace. Made the Indians look quite bad in 89. That 95 tour of England the Poms played him easily, as the Aussies did in the 96/97 series. Cant say I was upset at the time about his back injury!!!!!!

 

[silentstriker]

I am totally not reading this but Ponting did go up quite a bit in my eyes this past series. He didn't get a big score, but he looked comfortable, which he has never looked before in India.

Good for him.

 

[aussie]

I am totally not reading this but Ponting did go up quite a bit in my eyes this past series. He didn't get a big score, but he looked comfortable, which he has never looked before in India.

Good for him.

He looked just as comfortable in India 2008.

 

[robelinda]

He certainly looked fine against the spin in 08, really the last time he was seriously troubled by spin was in 01. Who knows how he wouldve fared in 04 if he wasnt injured. He actually didnt look bad on the 1998 tour, Blewett was the complete fail on that tour, figures are not great of course but Ponting didnt look bad at all in 98, that 01 series was pretty odd anyway- getting out so early in his innings to spin when he'd played Murali perfectly ok at number 6 facing him early on.

 

[Migara]

Yeah...because Ponting, arguably the best puller of all time has had a problem with the short ball...

Viv says hi!

 

[aussie]

He certainly looked fine against the spin in 08, really the last time he was seriously troubled by spin was in 01. Who knows how he wouldve fared in 04 if he wasnt injured. He actually didnt look bad on the 1998 tour, Blewett was the complete fail on that tour, figures are not great of course but Ponting didnt look bad at all in 98, that 01 series was pretty odd anyway- getting out so early in his innings to spin when he'd played Murali perfectly ok at number 6 facing him early on.

Yep. On point as usual.

 

[aussie]

Viv says hi!

Well he did say arguably.

 

[silentstriker]

He looked just as comfortable in India 2008.

Nah.

 

[aussie]

Nah.

Watched a different series then.

 

[silentstriker]

Nah.

 

[ankitj]

Ikki - did you again mention Sachin's average against 2Ws? I mean AGAIN? Didn't you see that Sachin was getting out to Saqlain (3 times), Mushtaq Ahmed (1), run out (1) and Akhtar (1).

Please don't selectively ignore posts. If you have to make a case against Tendulkar, you have better chances if you stick to McGrath and Donald. 2Ws didn't make it very hard for Sachin to score over their entire careers.

And another post that you ignored was the one regarding man of series award that Sachin won in Aus in 99 when McGrath played.

 

[Ruckus]

Although Ponting has a better record against great fast bowlers, as far as I have seen, I never felt Ponting's innings were "clean" (like Gilchrist's for example). There usually a lot of missed or shanked shots. It never felt totally "in control" to me. Perhaps that is his style of playing or maybe I missed some of his better innings.

I really think it is just his style. People always have that impression of Ponting because he has always had fidgety starts to his innings. Once he gets going though, he hits the ball just as clean as anyone imo. Take his recent 200 against Pak. He was playing incredibly shakily before his first 50, but after that his form was exceptional. And I think the 89 or whatever it was he made in the following innings was even more impressive. Right from the start he looked incredibly solid.

 

[Tom 1972]

Not based on any individual stats, but as an Aussie, I think that over your career, the strength of the team is massive (batting, bowling and fielding).

IMHO:
Tendulkar slightly > or = Lara .
Lara slightly > or = Ponting.

Mainly because for much of Tendulkar's career, the overall Indian team around him was just OK or had a great batting line-up. Lara had a relatively ordinary WI team around him for the most part.

Ponting has played in a mostly winning team until recently with all-time greats like Gilly, Warne, McGrath and top performers like the Waughs, Hadyn, Gillespie, Langer, MacGill. Fundamentally there were fewer match-winners in the Indian and WI teams over the journey. Ponting didn't have to do it all by himself.

I am sure there is less pressure on someone coming in at 4/300 or 1/100 with McWarne waiting in the wings to roll sides for <300. I mean some opposition sides might have done really well to get Australia 5/280 then Gilly came in and all of a sudden it was 400+.

The Aussie side was dominant for almost all of Ponting's career, the odd series and just recently aside.

Ponting has won 98 times and lost 25 times from 148 matches.

Contrast this with Tendulkar and Lara.

Tendulkar: 59 wins, 44 losses from 171 matches.
Lara: 32 wins, 63 losses from 131 matches.

I know people can say that Sachin & Lara HAD to make the runs given what was around them, or Ponting helped Australia win, hence he's greater but I disagree..

Not by that much mind you, and just my opinion.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Anyone who claims Bishop was at his best after his back injury hasn't watched Bishop at all.

Although Ponting has a better record against great fast bowlers, as far as I have seen, I never felt Ponting's innings were "clean" (like Gilchrist's for example). There usually a lot of missed or shanked shots. It never felt totally "in control" to me. Perhaps that is his style of playing or maybe I missed some of his better innings.

As DeusEx referred to, I can sort of understand why, with styles. Ponting doesn't really play with the perfectly straight bat, a la Tendulkar, or even Gilchrist whose bat seemed like an extension of his arms. The only time that it really comes out in that fashion is when he drives between mid on and the bowler. He tends to "chop" his cut shot, and work across his pads at times.

There's aspects to his batting that you'd be discouraging kids from copying, as there's very little margin for error.

 

[Altaican]

Ikki - did you again mention Sachin's average against 2Ws? I mean AGAIN? Didn't you see that Sachin was getting out to Saqlain (3 times), Mushtaq Ahmed (1), run out (1) and Akhtar (1).

Please don't selectively ignore posts. If you have to make a case against Tendulkar, you have better chances if you stick to McGrath and Donald. 2Ws didn't make it very hard for Sachin to score over their entire careers.

And another post that you ignored was the one regarding man of series award that Sachin won in Aus in 99 when McGrath played.

I think his point was that Ponting (at his best) was a better player of great pace bowlers (including the 2Ws) than Sachin. There is not much evidence to oppose it. You cannot say Sachin dominated the 2Ws either. For whatever reasons, he was not prolific against them and did not have a dominating series with them (like he did against Warne in 1998 for example). Maybe it was Saqlain. Maybe it was someone else. The fact is Sachin certainly didn't flog their attack or score prolifically against them.

Although I haven't see Sachin against the 2Ws (or against McGrath for that matter) in really bowler friendly conditions in Test match cricket, his Chennai innings in 1999 was a Master Class. Shame that rest of his mates could not see the team through.

Please, that man-of-the-series award in 1999-2000 series against Australia was a joke. I remember some members in the Aussie team being miffed by it, and rightly so. At least 3 Australian batsmen scored as many runs (if not more) as Sachin at a better average and a better strike rate. Even McGrath's bowling performance in that series was much better than Sachin's batting performance. It seemed more like a move to pacify irate Indian public, media regarding the Umpiring during the series.

 

[robelinda]

Please, that man-of-the-series award in 1999-2000 series against Australia was a joke. I remember some members in the Aussie team being miffed by it, and rightly so. At least 3 Australian batsmen scored as many runs (if not more) as Sachin at a better average and a better strike rate. Even McGrath's bowling performance in that series was much better than Sachin's batting performance. It seemed more like a move to pacify irate Indian public, media regarding the Umpiring during the series.

That was ridiculous, maybe they were just being nice after the 'back before wicket' dismissal. Ponting was awesome that series.

 

[ankitj]

@Ikki - And on McGrath I will repeat my whole argument that you ignored.

Averages in such small samples are going to be very sensitive to extremes. If you remove those games in 2004 series when Sachin came back into the series without fully recovering, his average becomes 42.

What you should see is that Tendulkar scored 2 hundreds and 5 fifties in 18 innings agains McGrath. That is NOT failure no matter what the average reads.

And how about this fact - Sachin faced McGrath in AUS in only one series and he won player of the series. But of course that doesn't suit you so you want look at matches in Ind too. If it was other way round - MoS in Ind and relative failures in Aus - you would've brought in the flat track argument.

EDIT: that was 2004 series not 2006

 

[Ruckus]

Not based on any individual stats, but as an Aussie, I think that over your career, the strength of the team is massive (batting, bowling and fielding).

IMHO:
Tendulkar slightly > or = Lara .
Lara slightly > or = Ponting.

Mainly because for much of Tendulkar's career, the overall Indian team around him was just OK or had a great batting line-up. Lara had a relatively ordinary WI team around him for the most part.

Ponting has played in a mostly winning team until recently with all-time greats like Gilly, Warne, McGrath and top performers like the Waughs, Hadyn, Gillespie, Langer, MacGill. Fundamentally there were fewer match-winners in the Indian and WI teams over the journey. Ponting didn't have to do it all by himself.

I am sure there is less pressure on someone coming in at 4/300 or 1/100 with McWarne waiting in the wings to roll sides for <300. I mean some opposition sides might have done really well to get Australia 5/280 then Gilly came in and all of a sudden it was 400+.

The Aussie side was dominant for almost all of Ponting's career, the odd series and just recently aside.

Ponting has won 98 times and lost 25 times from 148 matches.

Contrast this with Tendulkar and Lara.

Tendulkar: 59 wins, 44 losses from 171 matches.
Lara: 32 wins, 63 losses from 131 matches.

I know people can say that Sachin & Lara HAD to make the runs given what was around them, or Ponting helped Australia win, hence he's greater but I disagree..

Not by that much mind you, and just my opinion.

I dunno about those kind of arguments. If you have match winning bowlers in your team, that obviously means a lot of the time the opposition would put up small totals (which are easy to match or chase). And if you also have match winning batsman in your team, that means a substantial proportion of the required runs might be met before you come into bat (like for Ponting who has had the very successful opening pair of Hayden and Langer). In both cases I think it would be fair to say there is less pressure on someone like Ponting. However, you have to ask, is that even a particularly good thing? Less pressure might mean you throw your wicket easier by playing unnecessarily rash shots, or simply by not concentrating as much as might under pressure. This is especially relevant to someone like Ponting who actually seems to play his best in challenging circumstances (hence why he has so many man of the match awards despite having many other match winning batsmen and bowlers in his team for most of his career).

At the same time you could argue the opposite, like you, and say that less pressure means it is easier to play better and score more runs.

I feel though that perhaps neither of these arguments really have much merit. When your out in the middle batting in front of thousands of people, I really don't think whether your team is winning or losing would make much of difference to how a champion batsmen (like Ponting, Lara or Tendulkar) will approach their innings - either way I think they would play with full concentration and effort.

 

[Top_Cat]

Would be interesting to hear Steve Waugh's perspective on the old debate about whether it's easier to be a gun in a losing team or but one of a few excellent players in a winning team. Lara to a lesser extent but there aren't many guys who've been in both.