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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I may have misunderstood it but it looks like yes, the bat ave for the bowlers won't be affected by minnows but his bowl ave will still be what it is, because of them.

In any case, if we remove B/Z Murali still has a bowling average about one point better than Warne. And the average value of wicket which is already higher for Murali will become even higher. So that won't tilt it in Warne's favour at all.
Not trying to say it will be in Warne's favour but on my rough estimation the difference almost halves.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
How do you guys insert images? I want take snapshot of the excel and post.

Anyways, this is what you get when you remove B/Z:

Muralitharan
Bowling Average: 24.87
Average Value of Wicket: 30.63
Discount Factor: 81.19%


Warne
Bowling Average: 25.40
Average Value of Wicket: 29.49
Discount Factor: 86.12%

And this despite taking whole of Murali's career when he was an average bowler before year 99. I think that's quite decisive!
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
And this despite taking whole of Murali's career when he was an average bowler before year 99. I think that's quite decisive!
Murali wasn't an average bowler in the 90s. Wasn't that far from Warne - although he played much less.

I take screenshots on my Mac which has the feature built-in.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Watch Eng Vs Ind in 2007.. Even Tremlett and Broad were testing Dravid and Sachin with bodyline tactics but they were worked away easily once those two got in. Think it would be pretty much the same with Bradman and the Windies quartet.. FTR, I just do not see the Don averaging less than 70 against any bowlers of any era...

I know this may sound like sacrilege but here goes. The Don 'only' averaged sumthin like 74 vs the Wi of his time over 5 tests (yes I know the sample size is kinda small). In fact the WI of that time got the Don for the 1st duck in his career. Therefore I dont think it is that farfetched to assume that every now and then the 4 prong(any 3 or 4 of MM, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Clarke, Bishop, Walsh, Ambrose, Daniel, Gray) could keep the Don to under 70 say in the 60 to 65 range which is still infinitely better than what most of the greats of the 80s did.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Just because someone makes a point different to yours it doesn't mean that they are trolling.Seriously mate-grow up or just ignore my posts.
You're saying the only reason someone can consider Warne better is because of "aesthetics and stuff like that" - meaning just the way he looked when he was bowling and not actually the effect of his bowling i.e. the stats. You might as well say that Warne just looked prettier, that's it.
 
You're saying the only reason someone can consider Warne better is because of "aesthetics and stuff like that" - meaning just the way he looked when he was bowling and not actually the effect of his bowling i.e. the stats. You might as well say that Warne just looked prettier, that's it.
What I meant was that it is purists who generally tend to go for Warne over Murali.Certainly nothing degrading about Warne there.It is amazing that someone who keeps harping about how sensitive other posters are,is himself the most sensitive bloke around with an "heads I win tails you lose" attitude.You have no right to accuse anyone of trolling(as you know only too well)-if you think someone is,report it or put that person on ignore instead of ruining the thread and the atmosphere of the forum with petty and juvenile insults.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I'm not getting sensitive about it. I am just pointing out that to belittle a player, with the stature of Warne, into merely "looking good" is absurd enough to be considered trolling.

I have no problem with "purists generally consider Warne better". Maybe they do; as I am sure many others who aren't purists do too.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
No, there are more than enough statistical arguments for Warne. Even using avg, sr, 5/10w hauls; which are the same things you are using for Murali.

The bolded part is just trolling.
It really isn't - it's a debatable opinion that happens to differ from your own. If you can't participate in this or other discussions without resorting to name-calling, don't participate at all.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
If I said stats-wise Ponting was better than Tendulkar but there is an argument for Tendulkar, but generally along the lines of aesthetics, it wouldn't be trolling? Hard to believe. It's a statement that is bound to get people arguing.
 
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Burgey

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I know this may sound like sacrilege but here goes. The Don 'only' averaged sumthin like 74 vs the Wi of his time over 5 tests (yes I know the sample size is kinda small). In fact the WI of that time got the Don for the 1st duck in his career. Therefore I dont think it is that farfetched to assume that every now and then the 4 prong(any 3 or 4 of MM, Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Clarke, Bishop, Walsh, Ambrose, Daniel, Gray) could keep the Don to under 70 say in the 60 to 65 range which is still infinitely better than what most of the greats of the 80s did.
LMAO. That tour was 33-34 iirc, the year Bradman had his major health issues. he was very (by his standards) hit and miss that series, but others picked up the slack - guys like Ponsford etc.

I mean, if you're insinuating that Bradman's performances in that series showed he was weak against express bowling or something like that, then you wouldn't expect the others, who had struggled so badly the year before agaisnt Bodyline, to have comprehensively trounced the Windies attack the way they did.

It astonishes me really, that you'd say that. Here is a bloke who was crook and "only averaged 74". Look, anyone can have whatever view they like and can indicate that Bradman's average would fall by a factor of between 30-50% if he played in different eras. But if that's the case, you've got to be consistent and do the same thing to Hammond, Headley, Hobbs, Morris, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Compton, McCabe, Barnes, Constantine et al.

So if you want to say Bradman would average 50 odd in this era or the 90s or the 80s, that's fine. But to be consistent you'd have to say Headley would average 30, Hutton 20 something, MacCabe 20-something etc etc.

And that's bollocks, frankly. Because great players are great players. They adapt, they find a way.

It's difficult I know to comprehend that there can be a player who is nigh on twice as good as the Laras, Tendulkars, Pontings, Chappells, Richards etc. But there is. He was that good. I find it hard to comprehend myself. If you wrote a Boys' Own story and had Bradman's career as its centrepiece, the editor would send it back saying you need to be more realistic. But it happened. It beggars belief, but it did.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
LMAO. That tour was 33-34 iirc, the year Bradman had his major health issues. he was very (by his standards) hit and miss that series, but others picked up the slack - guys like Ponsford etc.

I mean, if you're insinuating that Bradman's performances in that series showed he was weak against express bowling or something like that, then you wouldn't expect the others, who had struggled so badly the year before agaisnt Bodyline, to have comprehensively trounced the Windies attack the way they did.

It astonishes me really, that you'd say that. Here is a bloke who was crook and "only averaged 74". Look, anyone can have whatever view they like and can indicate that Bradman's average would fall by a factor of between 30-50% if he played in different eras. But if that's the case, you've got to be consistent and do the same thing to Hammond, Headley, Hobbs, Morris, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Compton, McCabe, Barnes, Constantine et al.

So if you want to say Bradman would average 50 odd in this era or the 90s or the 80s, that's fine. But to be consistent you'd have to say Headley would average 30, Hutton 20 something, MacCabe 20-something etc etc.

And that's bollocks, frankly. Because great players are great players. They adapt, they find a way.

It's difficult I know to comprehend that there can be a player who is nigh on twice as good as the Laras, Tendulkars, Pontings, Chappells, Richards etc. But there is. He was that good. I find it hard to comprehend myself. If you wrote a Boys' Own story and had Bradman's career as its centrepiece, the editor would send it back saying you need to be more realistic. But it happened. It beggars belief, but it did.
Yeah was just going to mention his health issues - Some good points here. Don't think I really need to add that if the West Indies bowling attack was so strong how come the other Australian batsmen that excelled against them had failed miserably the prior year to bodyline.

edit- seems i pretty much copied what uncle burgey said
 
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Burgey

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Yeah was just going to mention his health issues - Some good points here. Don't think I really need to add that if the West Indies bowling attack was so strong how come the other Australian batsmen that excelled against them had failed miserably the prior year to bodyline.

edit- seems i pretty much copied what uncle burgey said
Well yeah, considering he averaged 56 against Bodyline in his worst ever series. Which just happens to be the career average of some contemporary greats and would place him in all-time contention were that his overall record anyway.
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Well yeah, considering he averaged 56 against Bodyline in his worst ever series. Which just happens to be the career average of some contemporary greats and would place him in all-time contention were that his overall record anyway.


This graph is pretty good to illustrate that point. Shows the batting averages of the frontline Australian batsmen in Tests in which Bodyline was used, compared to the other Tests in their career.

Although Bradman clearly had the biggest fall, he was also far and away the best batsmen
 
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Top_Cat

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Actually, they were very flat decks so Richardson actually is a FTB. The others were so horrified at the thought of being labelled one by CW 80 years later that they desperately tried to throw their wickets away to prove a point.

Consider the evidence; McCabe kept hooking right at the 5-6 fielders place in the legside specifically for that shot and Bradman stepped away, exposing his stumps regularly, not his fault England weren't good enough to hit the uprights. It's so obvious.
 

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