***Official*** Tendulkar vs Ponting Thread

[weldone]

Le Roux was exceptionally quick, and a genuinely good bowler (from what I've read and heard). But I reckon, he was just a level below Mike Procter and Peter Pollock, and a level above Clive Rice (needless to say that he was nowhere near Rice as a player, overall). All 4 of them were genuinely very good bowlers, of course; and the differences in their standards were not huge (just like Donald, Steyn and Shaun Pollock - for those who know what I mean).

 

[Burgey]

LOL, yeah yeah...I edited.

@ weldone; I was looking at WSC bowlers and saw the S.African Garth Le Roux. His FC record looks marvelous; does anyone know how good he was? Would he have been amongst the Hadlees, etc.?

He was Rod Marsh's nightmare. Big tall bloke, like a white Joel Garner height wise. Had a crazy yorker.

 

[ankitj]

LOL, yeah yeah...I edited.

@ weldone; I was looking at WSC bowlers and saw the S.African Garth Le Roux. His FC record looks marvelous; does anyone know how good he was? Would he have been amongst the Hadlees, etc.?

Garth Le Roux, they say, was the best pace bowler of that lost generation. Best SA pacer for more than a decade must have been definitely very good! Saw him running in the pace measurement events in 79/80 alongside great fast bowlers of that time.

 

[vcs]

Selling him short there; I saw him bowl offies in an ING Cup game for Tasmania and he took a wicket. It was the best ball I've ever seen.

 

[vcs]

I vaguely remember watching Garth Le Roux in a veteran's ODI game when I was very young. Jeff Dujon was also playing. I'm sure this is very relevant to the discussion.

 

[weldone]

Saying that Ponting is a better player against pace bowling overall will do injustice to Sachin. But I think Ponting, at his best, was better against highest quality pace bowling on pace bowling friendly wickets than Tendulkar ever was, probably.

And, Ponting is not certainly a mediocre player against spin bowling overall. But I have seen too many players (among those I saw live) who played spin better than him. Lara, Tendulkar, Miandad, Sangakkara, Sehwag, Ganguly, Steve Waugh, Jayawardene, Anwar, Azharuddin, Sidhu, Mohammad Yousuf, Saleem Malik, Dravid, Hayden, Ranatunga, Kirsten, Mark Waugh to name a few who were clearly better than him (and there are quite a few others who are comparable), from the top of mind.

 

[aussie]

LOL, yeah yeah...I edited.

@ weldone; I was looking at WSC bowlers and saw the S.African Garth Le Roux. His FC record looks marvelous; does anyone know how good he was? Would he have been amongst the Hadlees, etc.?

Ye he definately would have been amongst the Hadlee based on clips of WSC that i've seen of him & read about reports from people i know that saw him bowl in county cricket.

But the bowler who would have been a similar metronome to Hadlee would have been Vince Van der Bijl.

 

[aussie]

Le Roux was exceptionally quick, and a genuinely good bowler (from what I've read and heard). But I reckon, he was just a level below Mike Procter and Peter Pollock, and a level above Clive Rice (needless to say that he was nowhere near Rice as a player, overall). All 4 of them were genuinely very good bowlers, of course; and the differences in their standards were not huge (just like Donald, Steyn and Shaun Pollock - for those who know what I mean).

Le Roux IMO was almost jsut as good as P Pollock, but a level below procter slightly yea.

He was certainly better than Rice as a quick bowler however.

 

[weldone]

Le Roux IMO was almost jsut as good as P Pollock, but a level below procter slightly yea.

He was certainly better than Rice as a quick bowler however.

Isn't that what I just said?

Yeah, and I forgot Van der Bijl too. He was another of those great bowlers.

 

[aussie]

Isn't that what I just said?

Yeah, and I forgot Van der Bijl too. He was another of those great bowlers.

My mistake on Rice. Misread it.

 

[Prince EWS]

I noticed in another thread that Ikki asked for the standardised averages of Ponting and Tendulkar across time and opposition, and I thought this was the best place to post them.

Taking into account the difficulty of run-scoring in different decades and the standard of the opposition in each Test Ponting and Tendulkar have played, you get the following:

Tendulkar: 13,040 standardised runs @ 52.16
Ponting: 10,822 standardised runs @ 48.75

 

[Burgey]

I noticed in another thread that Ikki asked for the standardised averages of Ponting and Tendulkar across time and opposition, and I thought this was the best place to post them.

Taking into account the difficulty of run-scoring in different decades and the standard of the opposition in each Test Ponting and Tendulkar have played, you get the following:

Tendulkar: 13,040 standardised runs @ 52.16
Ponting: 10,822 standardised runs @ 48.75

I carried out the same exercise Cribbage. Adopting your methodology for standardisation as outlined in the above post (ie. none) I came up with:

Ponting : 4,368,724 runs at 985.46
Tendulkar: 17 runs at 0.000000037

 

[Prince EWS]

I carried out the same exercise Cribbage. Adopting your methodology for standardisation as outlined in the above post (ie. none) I came up with:

Ponting : 4,368,724 runs at 985.46
Tendulkar: 17 runs at 0.000000037

[B]Bowling Attack		Avg	Operation to runs scored against bowling attack[/B]

England 2010s		26.43	Runs * 1.14
South Africa 1990s	27.06	Runs * 1.11
Australia 1990s		27.76	Runs * 1.08
Pakistan 1990s		28.53	Runs * 1.05
Australia 2000s		28.73	Runs * 1.04
Australia 2010s		28.80	Runs * 1.04
West Indies 1990s	29.24	Runs * 1.03
South Africa 2010s	29.47	Runs * 1.02
Sri Lanka 2000s		30.27	Runs * 0.99
Pakistan 1980s		30.68	Runs * 0.98
Pakistan 2010s		30.87	Runs * 0.97
South Africa 2000s	31.13	Runs * 0.96
India 1990s		33.47	Runs * 0.90
England 2000s		33.71	Runs * 0.89
New Zealand 2000s	33.90	Runs * 0.89
Pakistan 2000s		34.74	Runs * 0.86
England 1990s		34.86	Runs * 0.86
India 2000s		34.99	Runs * 0.86
Sri Lanka 1990s		35.67	Runs * 0.84
New Zealand 1990s	36.00	Runs * 0.83
Zimbabwe 1990s		36.06	Runs * 0.83
West Indies 2000s	38.45	Runs * 0.78
India 2010s		39.84	Runs * 0.75
Zimbabwe 2000s		43.46	Runs * 0.69
Sri Lanka 2010s		45.58	Runs * 0.66
West Indies 2010s	49.74	Runs * 0.60
New Zealand 2010s	50.18	Runs * 0.60
Bangladesh 2000s	51.17	Runs * 0.59
Bangladesh 2010s	58.39	Runs * 0.51

It's actually a little bit more complicated than that table - it does a few other things like subtracting the focus player's runs away from the global performances against each bowling attack so the player isn't being compared to himself - but that's the crux of it. Obviously the 2010s stuff has fallen victim to small sample size a bit but they make up an extremely tiny portion of these two players' careers so it shouldn't effect it too much if at all. If anything, England 2010's abnormally low average due to playing Pakistan and Sri Lanka 2010's high average due to playing India makes the averages of the two players closer than they'd otherwise be.

I'd really like it to take home and away performances into consideration but it doesn't do that yet.

Anyway I was just answering a question; I didn't really fancy the prospect of trying to explain all that.

 

[Maximus0723]

If you don't mind, can you also post for ODIs?

 

[Prince EWS]

If you don't mind, can you also post for ODIs?

I did an ODI one a while back for every player ever, but it's a couple of years out of date now. If anything though Tendulkar's lead would've just increased.

 

[Burgey]

If you don't mind, can you do one on ODI WC finals played in SA between 2002 and 2004 please?

 

[robelinda]

If you don't mind, can you do one on ODI WC finals played in SA between 2002 and 2004 please?

 

[honestbharani]

[B]Bowling Attack		Avg	Operation to runs scored against bowling attack[/B]

England 2010s		26.43	Runs * 1.14
South Africa 1990s	27.06	Runs * 1.11
Australia 1990s		27.76	Runs * 1.08
Pakistan 1990s		28.53	Runs * 1.05
Australia 2000s		28.73	Runs * 1.04
Australia 2010s		28.80	Runs * 1.04
West Indies 1990s	29.24	Runs * 1.03
South Africa 2010s	29.47	Runs * 1.02
Sri Lanka 2000s		30.27	Runs * 0.99
Pakistan 1980s		30.68	Runs * 0.98
Pakistan 2010s		30.87	Runs * 0.97
South Africa 2000s	31.13	Runs * 0.96
India 1990s		33.47	Runs * 0.90
England 2000s		33.71	Runs * 0.89
New Zealand 2000s	33.90	Runs * 0.89
Pakistan 2000s		34.74	Runs * 0.86
England 1990s		34.86	Runs * 0.86
India 2000s		34.99	Runs * 0.86
Sri Lanka 1990s		35.67	Runs * 0.84
New Zealand 1990s	36.00	Runs * 0.83
Zimbabwe 1990s		36.06	Runs * 0.83
West Indies 2000s	38.45	Runs * 0.78
India 2010s		39.84	Runs * 0.75
Zimbabwe 2000s		43.46	Runs * 0.69
Sri Lanka 2010s		45.58	Runs * 0.66
West Indies 2010s	49.74	Runs * 0.60
New Zealand 2010s	50.18	Runs * 0.60
Bangladesh 2000s	51.17	Runs * 0.59
Bangladesh 2010s	58.39	Runs * 0.51

It's actually a little bit more complicated than that table - it does a few other things like subtracting the focus player's runs away from the global performances against each bowling attack so the player isn't being compared to himself - but that's the crux of it. Obviously the 2010s stuff has fallen victim to small sample size a bit but they make up an extremely tiny portion of these two players' careers so it shouldn't effect it too much if at all. If anything, England 2010's abnormally low average due to playing Pakistan and Sri Lanka 2010's high average due to playing India makes the averages of the two players closer than they'd otherwise be.

I'd really like it to take home and away performances into consideration but it doesn't do that yet.

Anyway I was just answering a question; I didn't really fancy the prospect of trying to explain all that.

PEWS, can you do it for a real big list of players, all of whom I believe can be argued for as the 2nd best batsmen of all time? (and maybe few that I might miss here)..


Sachin
Lara
Ponting
S Waugh
Border
Miandad
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Headley
Barrington
Hammond
Grace
G Chappell
G Pollock
B Richards



And I am sure I have left a few out.. But it would be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[weldone]

PEWS, can you do it for a real big list of players, all of whom I believe can be argued for as the 2nd best batsmen of all time? (and maybe few that I might miss here)..

................
B Richards

Licking my lips at the prospect of seeing a great statistical analysis of the 4 tests that Barry Richards played...and the inferences drawn from such an important analysis...It's surely going to be the best thing I've come across on cricket statistics...

(ha ha, you know I love having digs at you mr. bharani )

 

[Prince EWS]

PEWS, can you do it for a real big list of players, all of whom I believe can be argued for as the 2nd best batsmen of all time? (and maybe few that I might miss here)..


Sachin
Lara
Ponting
S Waugh
Border
Miandad
Gavaskar
Hobbs
Headley
Barrington
Hammond
Grace
G Chappell
G Pollock
B Richards



And I am sure I have left a few out.. But it would be interesting to see how it goes.

I've got every bowler in the history of Test cricket done but I've only got batsmen done as far back as those who debuted in the 80s or later so far. I'll be able to give you that full list in the next couple of days though - it's just a matter of copying more statsguru pages into notepad and running the program again.

Of course these averages still have some of the same problems scorebook averages have - they don't take longevity, playing on too late/retiring too early or pressure situations into account - but I do like to think they do remove a couple of the variables (era and opposition standards).