*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Ikki]

Why not Lance Gibbs? He was at one stage the highest wicket taker(number) in the World.

So was Kapil Dev at one point; doesn't mean he is close to Malcolm Marshall.

 

[Migara]

In modern times with all these FTB bullies & technically inept batsman around this era. Even if the Windies pace attack bowled 11-13 per hour, they would own most teams batsmen often enough to bowl them out cheapy & quickly. Thus overate problem would hardly be much of an issue.

I'd call that BS. manyguys who average 50 today will average 50 in any era. SRT, Dravid, Kallis, Sanga, and Lara would average 50 in any era. Windies quarter bowling on flat ytracks today would have broken down time and time out I'd say. Not to mention the amount of test cricket as well.

 

[Migara]

Why not Lance Gibbs? He was at one stage the highest wicket taker(number) in the World.

Probably par with Kumble, Chandra, Laker, Qadir and Verity, but statistically lacks the penetration of above four plus Barnes

 

[aussie]

LOL, that is a ludicrous line of argument. The batsmen play this way because of the challenges that have been put before them, obviously they would play differently if they were regularly up against quick bowlers on bouncy wickets all over the world. Check Prince EWS's post about a batsman's technique being a product of his environment.

And has PrinceEWS will tell you from past discussions, myself & many other CW memebers (although those who support it on CW outnumbers those who oppose it these days). Disagree with every part of that.

Usually i'd be quick to jump into this discussion. But i will decline, since i've argued it enough time & i've have come to conclusion on CW, that strong idelogical gridlock on this matter on both sides is present & NO middle ground can be found in this argument.

So i will pass up on repyling to this again.

 

[Jono]

Yeah well played aussie. Reckon that was the right thing to do.

 

[aussie]

I'd call that BS. manyguys who average 50 today will average 50 in any era. SRT, Dravid, Kallis, Sanga, and Lara would average 50 in any era. Windies quarter bowling on flat ytracks today would have broken down time and time out I'd say. Not to mention the amount of test cricket as well.

Yes. Those players listed plus Ponting & possibly KPi agree would average 50 in past difficult batting era for sure. Since those where the elite group of batsmen this decade where equally good on roads as they where in bowler friendly conditions. I have always maintained that is past arguments.

But many others whose averaged 50+ in the 2000s era such as Gilchrist, Yosuf, Jayawardene, Clarke, Sehwag, Gambhir (to date), Younis Khan, Hayden, G Smith, Chanderpaul, Laxman, Hussey, Samaraweera, (although i'm confident Hayden & G Smith could average 45+ at least).

But as aformentioned i'd argued this to death & wont go through this again.


Secondly. Its absolutely ridiculous to suggest the WI quarter would break down in modern times. Clearly you dont know how fit those bowlers where thanks to physio Dennis Waight (spell check). Plus given the likes of Marshall, Holding, Roberts especially bowled so superbly on flat Indian decks thanks to their ability to revese-swing the ball. No way would they have had trouble dismissing modern batsman. What a terrible disrespect to those great Windies bowlers this is, SMH.

 

[vcs]

Yes. Those players listed plus Ponting & possibly KPi agree would average 50 in past difficult batting era for sure. Since those where the elite group of batsmen this decade where equally good on roads as they where in bowler friendly conditions. I have always maintained that is past arguments.

But many others whose averaged 50+ in the 2000s era such as Gilchrist, Yosuf, Jayawardene, Clarke, Sehwag, Gambhir (to date), Younis Khan, Hayden, G Smith, Chanderpaul, Laxman, Hussey, Samaraweera, (although i'm confident Hayden & G Smith could average 45+ at least).

But as aformentioned i'd argued this to death & wont go through this again.


Secondly. Its absolutely ridiculous to suggest the WI quarter would break down in modern times. Clearly you dont know how fit those bowlers where thanks to physio Dennis Waight (spell check). Plus given the likes of Marshall, Holding, Roberts especially bowled so superbly on flat Indian decks thanks to their ability to revese-swing the ball. No way would they have had trouble dismissing modern batsman. What a terrible disrespect to those great Windies bowlers this is, SMH.

KP??? Really? SMH.

 

[Jono]

KP barely averages 50 in an easy batting era


Ftr I think he's a gun, but ridiculous to not rate some and rate him above them. 2-3 years of prolific run scoring in this era means **** all. Hussey proves that.

 

[aussie]

KP??? Really? SMH.

I did say possibly.

What makes me confident he would in past era's when in top form. KP when everything was fine averaged 50 plus most of time, including most importantly 50+ vs AUS, which is as good as anything seen in the 90s.

KP average slipped down past 50 only since 2009 after injuries & his losing the captaincy had an effect on his game.

KP barely averages 50 in an easy batting era.

Ftr I think he's a gun, but ridiculous to not rate some and rate him above them. 2-3 years of prolific run scoring in this era means **** all. Hussey proves that.

Hussey even in those early form period, never gave off the aura of potential great batsman. I certainly always expected his form to go down (not the level it is now of course), but fall sharply enough. So all those especially those on CW who where overhyping him during that period & are in for a shock now.

KP batting was clealry on a different level, especially when he was playing vs AUS, his early batting vs Murali in ENG 2006, vs SA in ENG 08. Which is one of the reasons why the cricinfo panel named him in the ENG ATXI ATT (although i wouldn't have done it). KP is a whisker away from greatness, once he gets his form back, which i'm fairly confident he will, people will start calling him one of the greats again.

But i wont right of the possibility that he could fall short of true greatness, by not maximising his talent to his fullest in years to come like Gundappa Viswanath, Zaheer Abbas, Lawrence Rowe for eg did...

 

[Slifer]

Lol, god CW is just weird sometimes. No disrespect, but not rating spinners is just ridiculous.

Jeez. Make one little comment and people act like I just committed some kinda sacrilege. Didnt realise I needed to break down my statement but what I meant to say is that if i had the choice between a top echelon pacer vs spinner Id (meaning me) would probably choose the pacer first (ex a Hadlee vs a Warne). But I do see the value of a spinner esp the top drawer ones like Murali, Warne, etc.

People on here 4get CW is culturally diverse and as much as spin is engrained in folks from India likewise for fast bowlers to us from the WI (we havent had ne top drawer spinners to speak of lately).

 

[Slifer]

I'd call that BS. manyguys who average 50 today will average 50 in any era. SRT, Dravid, Kallis, Sanga, and Lara would average 50 in any era. Windies quarter bowling on flat ytracks today would have broken down time and time out I'd say. Not to mention the amount of test cricket as well.

Again showing a lack of knowledge. I dont think ne of the batsmen u listed above would average much more than 40 vs the apocalypse (Lara sure as hell aint averaging 40 vs the 4 prong). Which in and of itself is an accomplishment.

U may not realise this but back in the 80s WI bowlers did used to break down every now and then but had ample resources as back up. Playing in today's game u have to use logic, they may struggle in an India or Pakistan but i see no reason for them not to thrive in NZ, Oz, Rsa, Eng. In the WI (where theyd play half their games) we'd prep Sabina-esque wickets and let it fly.

 

[Migara]

Yes. Those players listed plus Ponting & possibly KPi agree would average 50 in past difficult batting era for sure. Since those where the elite group of batsmen this decade where equally good on roads as they where in bowler friendly conditions. I have always maintained that is past arguments.

I just missed Kallis, Ponting, Border and Steve Waugh as well. Will average 50 in any era.

But many others whose averaged 50+ in the 2000s era such as Gilchrist, Yosuf, Jayawardene, Clarke, Sehwag, Gambhir (to date), Younis Khan, Hayden, G Smith, Chanderpaul, Laxman, Hussey, Samaraweera, (although i'm confident Hayden & G Smith could average 45+ at least).

These players are big home track bullies. They'll bully even the best on their home tracks. But all of them are average on foreign soils. (Note that SL tracks are not flat by any means, so Jayawardane and Samaraweera are HTBs, not FTBs). Hayden, Smith, Clarke, Laxman and Chanderpaul I reserve my judgment of them being HTBs. I think they'll average high 40s even against the best of attacks, because they are technically accomplished players although they are unorthodox.

Secondly. Its absolutely ridiculous to suggest the WI quarter would break down in modern times. Clearly you dont know how fit those bowlers where thanks to physio Dennis Waight (spell check). Plus given the likes of Marshall, Holding, Roberts especially bowled so superbly on flat Indian decks thanks to their ability to revese-swing the ball. No way would they have had trouble dismissing modern batsman. What a terrible disrespect to those great Windies bowlers this is, SMH.

Yes they were and it was by bowling umpteen number of bouncers and at a snail paced over rate. Get the over rare up to 15 and cut the bouncers and put them on flat tracks today, they'll be in for much more work than they used to do. Indian pitches of 80s and 90s were frankly bad for batting because of variable bounce, and that was the exact thing that WIndies bowlers extracted. Calling these decks flat is speculative. They were supremely fit, but still even fitness geeks of this era do break down due to the work load.

 

[Jono]

Jeez. Make one little comment and people act like I just committed some kinda sacrilege. Didnt realise I needed to break down my statement but what I meant to say is that if i had the choice between a top echelon pacer vs spinner Id (meaning me) would probably choose the pacer first (ex a Hadlee vs a Warne). But I do see the value of a spinner esp the top drawer ones like Murali, Warne, etc.

Lol, to be fair, your statement completely suggested something else.

People on here 4get CW is culturally diverse and as much as spin is engrained in folks from India likewise for fast bowlers to us from the WI (we havent had ne top drawer spinners to speak of lately).

Reckon Indians have seen so many spin bowlers that we value pace bowlers a hell of a lot more actually. The cultural aspect has the opposite effect.

Hence why Irfan Pathan, Sreesanth and Ishant Sharma got so much attention when they had bright starts to their career. Compare that to Ojha, Mishra etc. who are taken as "well, whatever, just another spinner"

 

[Migara]

Again showing a lack of knowledge. I dont think ne of the batsmen u listed above would average much more than 40 vs the apocalypse (Lara sure as hell aint averaging 40 vs the 4 prong). Which in and of itself is an accomplishment.

U may not realise this but back in the 80s WI bowlers did used to break down every now and then but had ample resources as back up. Playing in today's game u have to use logic, they may struggle in an India or Pakistan but i see no reason for them not to thrive in NZ, Oz, Rsa, Eng. In the WI (where theyd play half their games) we'd prep Sabina-esque wickets and let it fly.

I don't even think that Bradman wouldn't have averaged 60+ against them. But the point is that how they have done in 80s, and 80s every team did not have such a bowling line up. Hence they'll average 50. I would say that any other WI batsman of 80s would not have averaged 35 if Murali and Warne were bowling in tandem at them. (Even great Tendulkar averages 33 against SL post 1998 featuing Murali (i.e. after Murali learned to bowl the doosra)). Lara may not have averaged 40 because he played during his younger years, and we know that he's not the best of lot against pace.

You have a point regarding the games that they play at home, but then don't expect others to prepare fast tracks for them. Even Aussies and English would have prepared low slow turners and would have asked, "OK now ball fast and see!". With bouncer limitation, it will be really difficult to bowl on them. Your point on back up is perfectly valid, but that does not moot the point that there will be many more injuries.

 

[vcs]

I just missed Kallis, Ponting, Border and Steve Waugh as well. Will average 50 in any era.

These players are big home track bullies. They'll bully even the best on their home tracks. But all of them are average on foreign soils. (Note that SL tracks are not flat by any means, so Jayawardane and Samaraweera are HTBs, not FTBs). Hayden, Smith, Clarke, Laxman and Chanderpaul I reserve my judgment of them being HTBs. I think they'll average high 40s even against the best of attacks, because they are technically accomplished players although they are unorthodox.

...

Agree with all of that.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Absolute rubbish to call Laxman a FTB!What is this place coming to?
Problem with calling Jayawardene a FTB is that he has not had many opportunities away from home.Sanga is certainly no FTB!!!
KP doesn't even average 50 in this supposedly easy era.His record is crap in the SC.But that is ok,lets make excuses and bs to gloss over that.
The problem with some people is that they try and put past players on a pedestal just to sound knowledgeable and impressive.Funny how the flat track theory doesn't work in reverse-Steyn and Asif>all bowlers of the 80s?

 

[JBMAC]

I don't even think that Bradman wouldn't have averaged 60+ against them. But the point is that how they have done in 80s, and 80s every team did not have such a bowling line up. Hence they'll average 50. I would say that any other WI batsman of 80s would not have averaged 35 if Murali and Warne were bowling in tandem at them. (Even great Tendulkar averages 33 against SL post 1998 featuing Murali (i.e. after Murali learned to bowl the doosra)). Lara may not have averaged 40 because he played during his younger years, and we know that he's not the best of lot against pace.

You have a point regarding the games that they play at home, but then don't expect others to prepare fast tracks for them. Even Aussies and English would have prepared low slow turners and would have asked, "OK now ball fast and see!". With bouncer limitation, it will be really difficult to bowl on them. Your point on back up is perfectly valid, but that does not moot the point that there will be many more injuries.

You really DON'T know much about the game of Cricket, do you? The highlighted part of your statement above is pure garbage.

 

[vic_orthdox]

No need to make it personal, JBMAC.

 

[Migara]

You really DON'T know much about the game of Cricket, do you? The highlighted part of your statement above is pure garbage.

You expect Bradman to average more than the bodyline series against the Windies pace quartet?

I assume then Larwood was ****. or Bodyline was an exaggeration.

 

[Matt79]

Depends - would he be allowed to wear a helmet and chest protector? And would the Windies be allowed to set the Bodyline field?