Greatest All-rounder if captaincy were to be included

[Matt79]

Nah, that makes him a wicketkeeper-batsman. An all-rounder bats and bowls.

There is a school of thought that calls guys like Gilly, Flower and Dhoni, who would be selected purely as batsmen, allrounders.

 

[smash84]

There is a school of thought that calls guys like Gilly, Flower and Dhoni, who would be selected purely as batsmen, allrounders.

True. Innovations demand a re-evaluation of past standards and definitions.

 

[ankitj]

Even without qualification (all-rounder or not), I will give it to Imran Khan. There have been other good captains who have worked very hard, but noone seemed to have created magic like Imran did, almost out of a fiction plot. To remain the only team not to lose to WI in 80's, to mentor the next generation of great Pakistani fast bowlers and to come out of retirement to win first world cup for his country. What else could a great captain dream to achieve!

 

[Son Of Coco]

There is a school of thought that calls guys like Gilly, Flower and Dhoni, who would be selected purely as batsmen, allrounders.

Yeah I know, it's one I don't agree with

Being a slightly better batsman than what was the norm years ago still doesn't make you an all-rounder in my opinion. It's not 'innovative', it's just a bloke who bats well too. Gilly helped change the demands on how good a batsman your wicket-keeper should be. Don't see it as turning them into 'all-rounders' though.

How does someone who never bowls have an 'all-round' game?

Why can't Ponting be called an 'all-rounder' because he fields brilliantly then?

As much as I'd love to see Gilly and some of the other keepers bowl, they're not all-rounders as far as I'm concerned. Don't think they need a special name to justify how good they are.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Do I need to say anything?

 

[Son Of Coco]

Do I need to say anything?

It depends...email me first to let me know if you agree or disagree, and we'll go from there.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah I know, it's one I don't agree with

Being a slightly better batsman than what was the norm years ago still doesn't make you an all-rounder in my opinion. It's not 'innovative', it's just a bloke who bats well too. Gilly helped change the demands on how good a batsman your wicket-keeper should be. Don't see it as turning them into 'all-rounders' though.

How does someone who never bowls have an 'all-round' game?

Why can't Ponting be called an 'all-rounder' because he fields brilliantly then?

As much as I'd love to see Gilly and some of the other keepers bowl, they're not all-rounders as far as I'm concerned. Don't think they need a special name to justify how good they are.

I think the theory is that only if they would be selected purely as a batsman BUT THEN they also keep wickets, a la Gilly, Flower and Sanga that you would call them an allrounder. That's different from someone who bats at a Brad Haddin/Matt Prior standard, who is more the keeper who is also a better than average batsman (for a keeper).

 

[Son Of Coco]

I think the theory is that only if they would be selected purely as a batsman BUT THEN they also keep wickets, a la Gilly, Flower and Sanga that you would call them an allrounder. That's different from someone who bats at a Brad Haddin/Matt Prior standard, who is more the keeper who is also a better than average batsman (for a keeper).

Yeah, it is. But it still makes them an excellent wicketkeeper-batsman in my books.

An all-round game includes bowling, and most all-rounders have to bat and bowl to a certain standard. What if a guy is an excellent first slip as well as a great batsman? Or an good second slip and an excellent batsman?

Everybody has to field, but I think it's the extra time you put into all the disciplines that makes you an all-rounder.

How about we just all agree to call the wicket-keepers who are great batsmen 'pac-men'? They're almost round, but there's a bit missing.

That's pretty innovative

 

[smash84]

Even without qualification (all-rounder or not), I will give it to Imran Khan. There have been other good captains who have worked very hard, but noone seemed to have created magic like Imran did, almost out of a fiction plot. To remain the only team not to lose to WI in 80's, to mentor the next generation of great Pakistani fast bowlers and to come out of retirement to win first world cup for his country. What else could a great captain dream to achieve!

Hmmm. What about Stephen Fleming? He had a terrible team at his disposal and he worked wonders with the limited talent that he had at his disposal? But maybe you are right. It is difficult to find other captains who were so good. Clive Lloyd, Viv Richards, Steve Waugh, Mark Taylor, but all these guys had excellent teams at their disposal.

 

[smash84]

Yeah, it is. But it still makes them an excellent wicketkeeper-batsman in my books.

An all-round game includes bowling, and most all-rounders have to bat and bowl to a certain standard. What if a guy is an excellent first slip as well as a great batsman? Or an good second slip and an excellent batsman?

Everybody has to field, but I think it's the extra time you put into all the disciplines that makes you an all-rounder.

How about we just all agree to call the wicket-keepers who are great batsmen 'pac-men'? They're almost round, but there's a bit missing.

That's pretty innovative

LOL......good one

 

[Migara]

When did Dhoni start bowling in ODI's?

He's a keeper the last time I checked. Keepers are all rounders too.

 

[Migara]

Yeah, it is. But it still makes them an excellent wicketkeeper-batsman in my books.

An all-round game includes bowling, and most all-rounders have to bat and bowl to a certain standard. What if a guy is an excellent first slip as well as a great batsman? Or an good second slip and an excellent batsman?

Everybody has to field, but I think it's the extra time you put into all the disciplines that makes you an all-rounder.

How about we just all agree to call the wicket-keepers who are great batsmen 'pac-men'? They're almost round, but there's a bit missing.

That's pretty innovative

What makes you think that all round = batting + bowling only? All rounder is one who can be selected to a team purely on more than one discipline. Fielding and batting of course everybody should do and it's not a specialized job as bowling or keeping. Fielder + Batsman + Keeper OR Bowler = all rounder in my book. AFAIK, there are only few "ALL" rounders. Dilshan and Taibu are two of them who does all four jobs with some success.

 

[Dasa]

Yeah I know, it's one I don't agree with

Being a slightly better batsman than what was the norm years ago still doesn't make you an all-rounder in my opinion. It's not 'innovative', it's just a bloke who bats well too. Gilly helped change the demands on how good a batsman your wicket-keeper should be. Don't see it as turning them into 'all-rounders' though.

How does someone who never bowls have an 'all-round' game?

Why can't Ponting be called an 'all-rounder' because he fields brilliantly then?

As much as I'd love to see Gilly and some of the other keepers bowl, they're not all-rounders as far as I'm concerned. Don't think they need a special name to justify how good they are.

YouTube - Dhoni Bowling! Champions trophy - India vs West Indies

 

[kingkallis]

Bob Simpson is not considered an all-rounder? From what I have read and seen [ as a coach ] Bob must be a contender as well.

 

[Son Of Coco]

He's a keeper the last time I checked. Keepers are all rounders too.

Nah, they're not.

All-rounders only being more than one discipline is something someone made up to include their favourite player in the category. An all-rounder is someone who performs the main disciplines of the game to a proficient level (ie: batting and bowling). Calling a keeper an 'all-rounder' sounds like something Mark Nicholas has done.

 

[Son Of Coco]

YouTube - Dhoni Bowling! Champions trophy - India vs West Indies

That's why I think all keepers should be forced to bowl at least one over a match.

 

[BoyBrumby]

YouTube - Dhoni Bowling! Champions trophy - India vs West Indies

Really got the inswing going, MSD.

I think I agree with cokes on keepers generally tho. Not quite all-rounders for my quid, although if you add in competent captaincy (which lets out Dhoni, I'm afraid) I suppose one might stretch a point.

I think the key point for keepers is that, no matter how great a keeper they are, they won't be selected for it alone without some batting chops. A keeper might be sufficiently dire to be dropped for being plop behind the stumps (hi Matty), but the days of keepers batting #9 or below are gonesville. Both Oz and England have better keepers than their current test custodians (Manou & Foster respectively), but no-one even seriously advocates them because Haddin's & Prior's batting is so superior.

 

[Jono]

Dhoni's captaincy has moved from overrated to underrated on CW I reckon. A few odd field placements have made others forget his achievements over the last 24 months.

 

[Jarquis]

Yeah, and it's poor decisions in Tests that have led to criticisms of his ODI captaincy.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, and it's poor decisions in Tests that have led to criticisms of his ODI captaincy.

Ponting is also in the same boat FWIW.