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I think it's a fairly comfortable win for the current lineup, especially given that Kallis only hit his peak after 2000 or a few years after that.
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South Africa Domestic season 2010-11
- Thread starter SeamUp
- Start date
popepouri
State Vice-Captain
In ODIs I agree. In tests, no he wasn't. After the Kolkata test, he was a holding bowler. Could barely get a wicket.
They preferred going in with a spinner. 42 out of the 51 tests they played between 1995 and 2000 involved Symcox or Adams. Adams was used more than Symcox.
I liked Symcox and Adams but I don't think he's clearly better than Harris or even Botha. All four are mediocre SA spinners IMO.
SA had the reputation of collapsing with the lower order having to cleaning up the mess. This was based on the fact they usually fielded the majority of their ODI squad. IMO they had the best ODI squad but that didn't translate well to tests. The figures speak for themselves. Hansie averaged 35 odd, Jonty the same. Klusener wasn't much better, he averaged in the 30s. The number 6 spot especially caused concern for SA for a while. MacKenzie and Dippenaar fought for it for a while and they both averaged in the 30s as well. There were question marks after you got through Kallis and Cullinan.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Man for man comparison of all the other players except Kallis & all would be even & in some cases the SA 90s are better.
Kirsten 90s = Smith now
Gibbs late 90s>> Petersen now
Kallis 90s <<< Kallis now
Cullinan 90s >= Amla now
Cronje 90s >= Prince now
Rhodes 90s << De Villiers
Klusenrer late 90s >> Boucher now
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Disagree with quite a few of those, but I don't think individual comparisons is the way to go anyway. The current lineup has proven its solidity and reliability much more comprehensively than the 90's lineup, in a variety of conditions. You could do similar on-paper comparisons for many sides in different eras, but comparing the averages or peaks do not tell you how the batting units performed as a whole.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
And he did that holding role quite effectively. Just like Craig Matthes before him. He didn't need to take a bag of wickets with Donald/Pollock doing most of the work & taking the majority oft the wickets.
I liked Symcox and Adams but I don't think he's clearly better than Harris or even Botha. All four are mediocre SA spinners IMO.
Symcox was clearly the best spinner SA have had since readmission.
Off all the useful/decent SA spinners that have played tests since readmisson in Symcox, Boje, Adams, Eskeen, Henderson all where better than Harris IMO. (although you can argue not much is between him and Henderson).
Harris is only better than the "utter trash duo" of Peterson, Botha.
As i said Harris has benefited in the last 3 years of being part of a 5-man attack & Smith has used him cleverly. If Kallis stops bowling & Harris has to bowl as part of 4-man attack he will be exposed.
I guess i'd have to agree to disagree here.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Well its not SA where that good throughout the 2000s. Its only after 2006 (between SRI 2006 - AUS 2009) when SA went unbeaten for 3 years winning in ENG & AUS for eg, that SA batting was really that solid.
So you basically have to go on the 3 year peak of the current setup vs that similar 2-3 year peak of the specific SA late 90s batting line-up. Which outside of Kallis currently, its fairly even.
popepouri
State Vice-Captain
So does players like Chris Harris and Paul Collingwood. That doesn't make then one of the great test allrounders in the world.
What did he do? Out of the 20 test matches he played in, what are his achievements? Harris has 3 fifers with a sixer against Australia on a non-turning wicket.
It's irrelevant. None of them are really that good. If he was the best, that makes him by comparison the thinnest kid at fat camp.
Same was Symcox. Played in 5 man attacks.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Im not sure hwo you managed to compare Klusener to Harris & Collingwood.
But circa 96-2000 the only all-rounders comparable to Klusener where Cairs & McMillan. With Cairns being the best.
Some even called McMillian the best all-rounder during the period & he never even took a 5 wicket haul with the ball. His role with the ball was very similar to Klusener.
It's irrelevant. None of them are really that good. If he was the best, that makes him by comparison the thinnest kid at fat camp.
The old adage. You just had to watch them bowl to know Symcox was the best of the bunch - although he wasn't anything superb. Symcox did well when the conditions suited him. He ripped it a long way tan Harris. He was 33 when he was selected to the SAF side, might have been much better in his youth. Add to that he is probably the best slw bowling all rounder in recent times together with Vettori and Shakib Al Hasan.
Yea but i'd back Symcox to be more effective if he had to play in 4-man attack than Harris currently.
Well you did say SA had no one capable of bowling over 130 in 2000.
So lets also ignore the likes of Terbrugge, Pretorius, Ngam, Ntini, Willoughby, Hall, Bryson, Nel, Elworthy, Hayward, Dawson etc who were playing at that time. And the test players did also play some FC cricket in that era
popepouri
State Vice-Captain
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Nah Symocox clearly the most talented spinner SA have produced since readmission.
TT Boy
Hall of Fame Member
Don’t be silly. Paul Adams.
aussie
Hall of Fame Member
Adams was more unique talent. But Symcox was more solid all-round as a spinner.
Bounce for popepouri
But according to you none of them could bowl 140+.
Whether they were poor or not has nothing to do with it.
popepouri
State Vice-Captain
Bounced from popepouri.
popepouri
State Vice-Captain
I'll try and clarify.
10 years ago, the domestic system produced a lot of right arm fair-to-good medium-fast swing bowlers and because most pitches assisted them, they were incredibly successful taking loads of wickets in the FC domestic tournament. The issue was that most pitches outside of SA are not as green so a lot of them could not step up to next level because their lack of pace. There was also the issue that none added variety so someone like Terbrugge who was similar to Pollock in many ways lost out not only because of injury but because he added nothing new to the attack. I'll go through each bowler you presented.
Terbrugge - as mentioned, right arm medium-fast bowler who could move the ball of the seam but not very quick
Pretorius - one of the promising players whose stock delivery was over 135kph. He had a different problem where he had poor mental toughness
Ngam - Another promising fast bowler similar in action to Donald but of course hampered badly by injury. Ended up bowling of 2 step run up after that.
Ntini - In 2000, he was really quick and one of the few that went on to make a good career because of it.
Willoughby - Medium fast bowler who could swing the ball. Difference was he was left-arm but was not very quick.
Hall - Another right-arm medium-fast bowler. Fantastic bowler in FC cricket where the ball is moving around but failed to make an impression outside of ODI cricket. Also not very quick but able to crank it up to 140 at times.
Bryson - Quick bowler but hampered by age.
Nel - Another right-arm med-fast bowler. Got much quicker around 2003 and then lost it somehow.
Elworthy - Seemed a little quicker than the rest but didn't have much promise for the long term given his age.
Hayward - Probably the quickest out there who was able to hit 150 at times, but had injuries and control issues. Ended up bowling for 3 step run up later on.
Dawson - Another right arm medium-fast/fast-medium bowler.
If you rule out those who were hampered by injury and ages, there weren't a lot going around in terms of good classic SA fast bowling. With Donald losing pace in the naughties, what SA needed was another strike bowler and there was nothing on offer. In the end, Donald lost pace and retired and Ntini had to pick up the brunt of the striking and he wasn't as good and Pollock wasn't a strike bowler. There was definitely something missing in the attack and I think it's the main reason why they were trashed by Australia in 2001. Steyn was also rushed into the international scene because of it.
Now is the same missing from the current bowling stocks? I don't think so. Steyn and Morkel are two great out-and-out strike bowlers with plenty more in the domestic scene. There's also a lot more left-armers and plenty of wrist-spinners. In the past, having someone who was able to hit 145 was a luxury, now I count 4-5 bowlers who can do it consistently (Steyn, Morkel, Alexander, Plaatjies, de Wet). The reason for this IMO, the pitches that are being prepared are flatter hence those who didn't have much pace needed more variety in their bowling or had to gain pace. Someone like Lopsy figured this out where he wanted to gain more pace and succeeded in doing so in Australia hitting over 140. He got injured after that though and now I think he is attempting to be more of a Bracken type bowler who bowls a lot of cutters and mixes his pace.
What is eluding is the 3 seamer option because of the lost form of Ntini, however this is a recent problem and so new options are being tried. Tsotsobe and Parnell have only had a handful of games.
10 years ago, the domestic system produced a lot of right arm fair-to-good medium-fast swing bowlers and because most pitches assisted them, they were incredibly successful taking loads of wickets in the FC domestic tournament. The issue was that most pitches outside of SA are not as green so a lot of them could not step up to next level because their lack of pace. There was also the issue that none added variety so someone like Terbrugge who was similar to Pollock in many ways lost out not only because of injury but because he added nothing new to the attack. I'll go through each bowler you presented.
Terbrugge - as mentioned, right arm medium-fast bowler who could move the ball of the seam but not very quick
Pretorius - one of the promising players whose stock delivery was over 135kph. He had a different problem where he had poor mental toughness
Ngam - Another promising fast bowler similar in action to Donald but of course hampered badly by injury. Ended up bowling of 2 step run up after that.
Ntini - In 2000, he was really quick and one of the few that went on to make a good career because of it.
Willoughby - Medium fast bowler who could swing the ball. Difference was he was left-arm but was not very quick.
Hall - Another right-arm medium-fast bowler. Fantastic bowler in FC cricket where the ball is moving around but failed to make an impression outside of ODI cricket. Also not very quick but able to crank it up to 140 at times.
Bryson - Quick bowler but hampered by age.
Nel - Another right-arm med-fast bowler. Got much quicker around 2003 and then lost it somehow.
Elworthy - Seemed a little quicker than the rest but didn't have much promise for the long term given his age.
Hayward - Probably the quickest out there who was able to hit 150 at times, but had injuries and control issues. Ended up bowling for 3 step run up later on.
Dawson - Another right arm medium-fast/fast-medium bowler.
If you rule out those who were hampered by injury and ages, there weren't a lot going around in terms of good classic SA fast bowling. With Donald losing pace in the naughties, what SA needed was another strike bowler and there was nothing on offer. In the end, Donald lost pace and retired and Ntini had to pick up the brunt of the striking and he wasn't as good and Pollock wasn't a strike bowler. There was definitely something missing in the attack and I think it's the main reason why they were trashed by Australia in 2001. Steyn was also rushed into the international scene because of it.
Now is the same missing from the current bowling stocks? I don't think so. Steyn and Morkel are two great out-and-out strike bowlers with plenty more in the domestic scene. There's also a lot more left-armers and plenty of wrist-spinners. In the past, having someone who was able to hit 145 was a luxury, now I count 4-5 bowlers who can do it consistently (Steyn, Morkel, Alexander, Plaatjies, de Wet). The reason for this IMO, the pitches that are being prepared are flatter hence those who didn't have much pace needed more variety in their bowling or had to gain pace. Someone like Lopsy figured this out where he wanted to gain more pace and succeeded in doing so in Australia hitting over 140. He got injured after that though and now I think he is attempting to be more of a Bracken type bowler who bowls a lot of cutters and mixes his pace.
What is eluding is the 3 seamer option because of the lost form of Ntini, however this is a recent problem and so new options are being tried. Tsotsobe and Parnell have only had a handful of games.
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