*Official* Road to the 2010/11 Ashes

[Flem274*]

But I thought Scaly was sodium hydroxide?

 

[Scaly piscine]

Except of course Botham had a cricketing brain to some extent.

Donkey Panesar does not. He just fires it in again and again and again getting minimum turn if any and ****house batsmen obligingly play for oodles of turn on a day one pitch.

It's almost as if I didn't predict for his average to skyrocket towards 35 when it was ridiculously below 30.

 

[tooextracool]

As I said I can see the reasons for opting for Panesar, but I think Rashid brings more to the table as a cricketer. We've had ample chance to blood him before now (God bless Tredwell, but he doesn't strike one as a long term test prospect and he's debuted after Rashid has been included in squads) so for the selectors to say "Ah, well, Australia's not the place for a debut" is a bit rich IMHO.

Rashid's been handled woefully, tbh. I hope we get the full story eventually because at the moment it seems a case in point about how to not manage a young prospect.

Yeah Rashid has been handled poorly and I am as baffled as anyone else regarding his exclusion from both squads. I know he wasnt brilliant, but he wasnt exactly woeful in his ODI performances to date.

Regarding Rashid, I dont see him playing as part of a 4 man attack unless we're playing in the subcontinent and he has Swann leading. Whilst I have no doubt that he has a lot of potential, hes also quite likely to get caned around the park. Rashid is probably already a better 'cricketer' than Panesar but the bottom line is that he couldn't be a replacement for Swann at the moment.

 

[Top_Cat]

tbh, it's not that rare for up-and-coming wrist-spinners to fall in and out of favour in fairly drastic ways. Finger spinners at least have the virtue of being accurate when they're not bowling that well so they're perceived as being able to do a job even when it all falls apart. A wrist-spinner tends to be a fairly expensive luxury for any team if they're not hitting their areas very well and the fall is usually spectacular.

Can think of a few examples in Australian cricket but one which stands out like dogs bollocks is Shannon Tubb. Played in virtually every age rep team for both state and country, was considered a prodigy after playing first grade cricket at 14, world at his feet, a certain Test bowler, etc. Hasn't been sighted in state colours for about 5 years now.

A case could be made that he was handled poorly but it's hard to pick a wristie who's bowling long-hops and full-tosses. That said, it's interesting how more people seem to worry quite a bit about the fragile mental state of wrist-spinners getting smashed when out of form but when a finger-spinner is getting pumped, "Yep, he WANTS him to be playing his shot. Matter of time before he miscues one."

 

[Manee]

Except of course Botham had a cricketing brain to some extent.

Donkey Panesar does not. He just fires it in again and again and again getting minimum turn if any and ****house batsmen obligingly play for oodles of turn on a day one pitch.

It's almost as if I didn't predict for his average to skyrocket towards 35 when it was ridiculously below 30.

A spin bowler who does not have a cricketing brain will not take Test wickets at the rate that Monty did. This is why I kept talking about the big picture, people don't just waltz in and take FC wickets, especially spinners (if you bowl 85mph+, you might steal a few), with just natural talent, you need to have some sort of plan.

 

[Prince EWS]

A spin bowler who does not have a cricketing brain will not take Test wickets at the rate that Monty did. This is why I kept talking about the big picture, people don't just waltz in and take FC wickets, especially spinners (if you bowl 85mph+, you might steal a few), with just natural talent, you need to have some sort of plan.

And again you have to look into the context of people's posts. If someone says Panesar doesn't have a good cricketing brain, they are comparing him only to those who are relevant - other Test bowlers.

 

[GIMH]

In general maybe you'd have a point, but I think in this instance Scaly is talking in absolute terms for Panesar's cricketing brain - I could be wrong but that's the impression I get.

Not getting into whether I agree or disagree with him, but I enjoy disagreeing with you EWS, you ****.

 

[Manee]

and again you have to look into the context of people's posts. If someone says panesar doesn't have a good cricketing brain, they are comparing him only to those who are relevant - other test bowlers.

in general maybe you'd have a point, but i think in this instance scaly is talking in absolute terms for panesar's cricketing brain - i could be wrong but that's the impression i get.

AWTGIMH.

z.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Donkey simply bowls. He can't dismiss batsmen by using nous, he hasn't got any. If someone attacks him he reacts by making it harder for them to attack him and that's it - regardless of the game scenario.

It's all this and his extremely one dimensional bowling that make him so poor at breaking partnerships and dismissing decent batsmen.

I bet if you brought Swann on to bowl and said get us a wicket. Keep it quiet. Make the batsman play in a certain area. You would get marked differences. Compare that to Panesar.

 

[Manee]

Yeh, you would get a marked difference, because Swann is a far better bowler. You can't say that he has no nous though. He doesn't spin the ball much and isn't some sort of robotic metronome, how would he have even got to First Class level if he did not have a degree of nous.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Yeh, you would get a marked difference, because Swann is a far better bowler. You can't say that he has no nous though. He doesn't spin the ball much and isn't some sort of robotic metronome, how would he have even got to First Class level if he did not have a degree of nous.

Oh lord, not this line of argument again.

Donkey is effective against tailenders and guys like Morkel who are just clueless against any sort of spin bowling. That's enough to get you hatfuls in the levels below FC cricket.

This is not a highly smart and efficient cricketing world. Raw ability goes a very, very long way. Not every batsman out there can think on their feet and adapt a strategy on the spot. They just bat. Same as Panesar just bowls.

 

[aussie]

Firmly with Scaly here.

 

[Manee]

Oh lord, not this line of argument again.

Donkey is effective against tailenders and guys like Morkel who are just clueless against any sort of spin bowling. That's enough to get you hatfuls in the levels below FC cricket.

This is not a highly smart and efficient cricketing world. Raw ability goes a very, very long way. Not every batsman out there can think on their feet and adapt a strategy on the spot. They just bat. Same as Panesar just bowls.

What does Monty do though? What is his raw ability? You admit that he doesn't spin the ball much, how does he get top order batsmen out? You may say that he 'cashes in' on declaration wickets and tail enders, but that simply does not even begin to account for all his 419 FC wickets. He has got a fair few top order batsmen out and you do not do that without the shred of ability that you deny him.

 

[Scaly piscine]

He doesn't get top batsmen out as I say, bunsens and errors aside. He gets county cricketers out because by and large they're not very good particularly against spin and because he's played for second division sides whose home ground tends to have quite a bit in it for spinners. For that level he's a very accurate bowler who can be difficult to hammer completely because he's awkward (left armer and flat).

 

[tooextracool]

If you ask me he turns the ball a fair bit for someone who barely ever tosses the ball up. In fact he turns the ball more than any other finger spinner I can think off and this has been attributed to his long fingers. Hes also extremely accurate. Unfortunately those are all the complements I can give him, but most finger spinners would kill to have those attributes.

 

[Manee]

He doesn't get top batsmen out as I say, bunsens and errors aside. He gets county cricketers out because by and large they're not very good particularly against spin and because he's played for second division sides whose home ground tends to have quite a bit in it for spinners. For that level he's a very accurate bowler who can be difficult to hammer completely because he's awkward (left armer and flat).

If you ask me he turns the ball a fair bit for someone who barely ever tosses the ball up. In fact he turns the ball more than any other finger spinner I can think off and this has been attributed to his long fingers. Hes also extremely accurate. Unfortunately those are all the complements I can give him, but most finger spinners would kill to have those attributes.

Fair enough.

 

[Uppercut]

If you ask me he turns the ball a fair bit for someone who barely ever tosses the ball up. In fact he turns the ball more than any other finger spinner I can think off and this has been attributed to his long fingers. Hes also extremely accurate. Unfortunately those are all the complements I can give him, but most finger spinners would kill to have those attributes.

Maybe a few years back. I think both of those attributes have rather deserted him.

In any case, as finger spinners go I don't think he ever turned it quite as much as Swann does now.

 

[tooextracool]

Maybe a few years back. I think both of those attributes have rather deserted him.

In any case, as finger spinners go I don't think he ever turned it quite as much as Swann does now.

Not sure what you are on about here. Do you honestly think that Panesar suddenly stopped turning the ball or that he got less accurate?

As far as him turning it less than Swann is concerned, if you dont toss the ball up you are obviously going to get less purchase/turn off the pitch. Panesar bowls it quicker and flatter but if someone looked into the number of revs that he puts on the ball, I would be very surprised if it wasnt more than Swann's.

 

[aussie]

Not sure what you are on about here. Do you honestly think that Panesar suddenly stopped turning the ball or that he got less accurate?

As far as him turning it less than Swann is concerned, if you dont toss the ball up you are obviously going to get less purchase/turn off the pitch. Panesar bowls it quicker and flatter but if someone looked into the number of revs that he puts on the ball, I would be very surprised if it wasnt more than Swann's.

That has certainly been the case between India 07 (at home) to Cardiff 09.

Plus even when Monty tried to toss the ball up like Swann he didn't spin the ball as much. The perfect example of this was the final day of the Chennai 08 test vs IND, when he tried doing so & got no turn whatsoever.

Panesar only knows to bowl one-way that is quick & flat. Which gave him intial success during the first year (IND 06 - WI 07) of his test career. Has batsmen adjusted to that he became useless.

Panesar also has a very scrambled seam when bowling, compared to Swann who has the perfect straight seam.

 

[Furball]

Yeah Rashid has been handled poorly and I am as baffled as anyone else regarding his exclusion from both squads. I know he wasnt brilliant, but he wasnt exactly woeful in his ODI performances to date.

Rashid was woeful in the ODIs he played. His overall career List A record is atrocious.

Classic case of a player being picked for the wrong format. If Rashid is to have an England career, at this point in time it has to be Tests only.