Who would be your top 10 greatest Asian cricketers?

[smash84]

Let's not forget the difference between the ER of 3.71 and 4.68 which is a big one even after keeping the difference in the respective eras in mind. I think ER is as important a stat as average in ODIs, and the difference in their ERs (almost 1 run per over) offset the difference in averages (in spite of the different eras).

Kapil's average bowling day in an ODI: 10 overs 37 runs and 1.35 wickets
Waqar's average bowling day in ODI: 10 overs 47 runs and 1.97 wickets

Definitely comparable.

Of course, Waqar was a much better bowler in tests, so much that they're not comparable as test bowlers. But as ODI bowlers, they are certainly comparable.

Weldone.....I don't quite understand how come a difference of 1 run in ER offsets the difference of 0.63 wickets per match? A difference of 0.63 wickets per match is HUGE and it becomes all the more significant spread over the length of an international career. A guy having 135 wickets in 100 matches and a guy having 200 wickets in hundred matches. I would say not quite comparable in ODIs

 

[smash84]

Now did I sounded something like the above? Waqar > Imran, and Waqar > Kapil in ODIs IMO. You'll also agree I think with me.

Yes I thought you did sound like Imran>Waqar since you were telling weldone that Kapil is not a better bowler than Waqar but an argument could have been made for Imran.

And yes I definitely agree with you on this which is why I had posted on this issue in the first place...............

 

[smash84]

Waqar's WC record isn't very special for a bowler of his caliber. He still has an excellent average of 21 odd but there aren't too many memorable performances there.

Waqar only played 2 world cups (3 if you count the 1999 world cup where he was kept out of the team mainly due to his off the field rivalry with Wasim. He played very few matches in that world cup. In 1992 he was injured for the world cup and had to stay back). In 2003 world cup he was at the end of his career. He retired soon after. The only world cup where he was fit was 1996 and I don't think his performance was too bad in that world cup. Although I remember him getting smashed all over the park in the quarter final against India.

And pal, world cups is not the only tournament where important matches are played. Waqar has many memorable performances over the length of his career. Pakistan have never beaten India in a world cup match. I don't think it means that Pakistan cannot perform in important matches.

 

[aussie]

Yes, of course they'll be expected to play against another great team...

Yea, this is the only thing wrong with Migara's team. Againts another great team i.e a Rest of World All-Time ODI XI. The lack of a top-quality 5th bowler could/would be exposed.

 

[smash84]

Noone quite as good, on the yorker topic, to Waqar IMO.

Garner's main advantage with his yorker was his height which made it hard to see the ball releasing. His yorkers didn't swing much. Also, He was not an express pacer and that kinda negated the surprise element of his yorkers IMO. Still had an exceptional yorker.

Malinga's yorker is quite brilliant, though on occasions he overdoes it. Can get very good swing on his yorkers particularly in D/N games while bowling at the death in SL ODIs. Not quite the same weapon in tests though. Atleast, not yet.

Waqar's on the other hand reverse-swung wildly like a loaded Frisbee and the Batsman often had no idea of the extent to which it would swing in the air and therefore had to be wary of the ball pitching on any of the three stumps. That combined with Waqar being one of the fastest bowlers to ever play the game made his yorker 'the' best.

Agreed with Teja's analysis. Waqar's yorkers had banana swing. Malinga does not get as much swing on his yorkers as Waqar did.

And somebody mentioned Andrew Hall. I didn't know Andrew Hall was a master of the yorker. Maybe somebody can shed more light on that.

 

[akilana]

Why not like comparing Sehwag and Ponting in ODIs??? Because Gilly and Dravid suited your argument?

why didn't I compare Harbajan with Hayden? cos it doesn't suit my argument.

There's no way you can compare Kapil with Waqar. The only thing that's in favour of Kapil is his ER

 

[vcs]

Waqar only played 2 world cups (3 if you count the 1999 world cup where he was kept out of the team mainly due to his off the field rivalry with Wasim. He played very few matches in that world cup. In 1992 he was injured for the world cup and had to stay back). In 2003 world cup he was at the end of his career. He retired soon after. The only world cup where he was fit was 1996 and I don't think his performance was too bad in that world cup. Although I remember him getting smashed all over the park in the quarter final against India.

And pal, world cups is not the only tournament where important matches are played. Waqar has many memorable performances over the length of his career. Pakistan have never beaten India in a world cup match. I don't think it means that Pakistan cannot perform in important matches.

I do not mean to say that World Cups are the only matches that count. No doubt Waqar has demolished plenty of lineups and won his team several important matches in other tournaments. He was also unlucky to be injured in '92 where I reckon he'd have cleaned up.

That said, the World Cup is the premier ODI tournament and performing well there always lifts your reputation to a higher level than otherwise. Wasim averages more than Waqar as well, even in World Cup matches, but no one would ever think of picking Waqar over Wasim as an ODI bowler. That is because Wasim won Pakistan some huge matches in that tournament.

These two also had the benefit of hunting in pairs and bowling alongside another world-class spinner in Saqlain, whereas Kapil rarely enjoyed that privilege in his career.

 

[weldone]

Weldone.....I don't quite understand how come a difference of 1 run in ER offsets the difference of 0.63 wickets per match? A difference of 0.63 wickets per match is HUGE and it becomes all the more significant spread over the length of an international career. A guy having 135 wickets in 100 matches and a guy having 200 wickets in hundred matches. I would say not quite comparable in ODIs

and 1 run per over means 10 runs per match per bowler, which is huge too.

You'll understand when I give you an equivalent example for batsmen. A difference of one run per over is like the difference between a batting strike rate of 83.33 (which means 5 runs per over) and 66.67 (which means 4 runs per over). Are you suggesting that is not a HUGE difference?

 

[weldone]

The only thing that's in favour of Kapil is his ER

And the only thing in favour of Waqar is that he gives away 3.6 runs less per wicket.

 

[Ikki]

His SR?

 

[G.I.Joe]

There are only two raw variables out of the three though. The third only derives from the other two.

 

[G.I.Joe]

I mean, the two measures of a bowler are how quickly he gets his wickets (the SR), and how many runs he concedes going about his business (the ER). The average is a derivative that tells us how good he is at striking a balance between the two. I suppose OPM is important too.

 

[Prince EWS]

There are only two raw variables out of the three though. The third only derives from the other two.

I mean, the two measures of a bowler are how quickly he gets his wickets (the SR), and how many runs he concedes going about his business (the ER). The average is a derivative that tells us how good he is at striking a balance between the two. I suppose OPM is important too.

Haha yep, AWTA.

 

[Migara]

Comparing Waqar's ER vs Kapil's by just numbers is not correct. Actutally should see how they did according to the era.

Kapil Dev (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 27.45, ER - 3.71, SR - 44.2
Rest of the world (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 31.12, ER - 4.14, SR - 45.0

Kapil vs ROW: Avg: 1.13, ER - 1.12, SR - 1.02

Waqar Younis (14-10-1989 to 04-03-2003): Avg - 23.84, ER - 4.68, SR - 30.5
ROW (14-10-1989 to 04-03-2003): Avg - 32.41, ER - 4.49, SR - 43.2

Waqar vs ROW: Avg - 1.36, ER - 0.96, SR - 1.41

This shows Waqar was miles ahead of Kapil in Average and SR. Their ER are quite close. When you consider that Avg = ER * SR, better average of Waqar shows that he was a much better bowler.

 

[smash84]

Comparing Waqar's ER vs Kapil's by just numbers is not correct. Actutally should see how they did according to the era.

Kapil Dev (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 27.45, ER - 3.71, SR - 44.2
Rest of the world (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 31.12, ER - 4.14, SR - 45.0

Kapil vs ROW: Avg: 1.13, ER - 1.12, SR - 1.02

Waqar Younis (14-10-1989 to 04-03-2003): Avg - 23.84, ER - 4.68, SR - 30.5
ROW (14-10-1989 to 04-03-2003): Avg - 32.41, ER - 4.49, SR - 43.2

Waqar vs ROW: Avg - 1.36, ER - 0.96, SR - 1.41

This shows Waqar was miles ahead of Kapil in Average and SR. Their ER are quite close. When you consider that Avg = ER * SR, better average of Waqar shows that he was a much better bowler.

Excellent analysis.

 

[weldone]

When you consider that Avg = ER * SR, better average of Waqar shows that he was a much better bowler.

Extending the same logic, a batsman with better average is definitely better than a batsman with lower average regardless of their SRs (in ODI).

So in ODIs, Dravid > Gilly.

This logic is sound in test matches, but not in ODIs.

Because in ODIs, ER is slightly more important than SR, while in test matches they are equally important.

That's why, average alone, can't tell you everything in ODIs, while it can reveal much in case of test matches.

This is true for both batsmen and bowlers.

 

[Migara]

Extending the same logic, a batsman with better average is definitely better than a batsman with lower average regardless of their SRs (in ODI).

So in ODIs, Dravid > Gilly.

This logic is sound in test matches, but not in ODIs.

Because in ODIs, ER is slightly more important than SR, while in test matches they are equally important.

That's why, average alone, can't tell you everything in ODIs, while it can reveal much in case of test matches.

This is true for both batsmen and bowlers.

Wrong. There's no connection between batsman's SR and their average unlike a bowler. In batsmen's case their Avg * SR would be a better measure. Don't bring in wrong concepts. ER and SR are both important. If you think that ER is very important look at the following.

Kapil Dev (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 27.45, ER - 3.71, SR - 44.2
Rest of the world (01-10-1978 to 14-10-1994) - Avg - 31.12, ER - 4.14, SR - 45.0
Kapil vs ROW: Avg: 1.13, ER - 1.12, SR - 1.02

Chaminda Vaas (15-02-1994 to 27-08-2008): Avg: 27.53, ER: 4.18, SR 39.4
ROW (15-02-1994 to 27-08-2008): Avg: 32.55, ER - 4.66, SR - 41.8
Vaas vs ROW: Avg - 1.18, ER - 1.12, SR - 1.06

If the ER is the most important thing then Vaas > Kapil easily. Even if it was not ER, even Vaas' figures are better than Kapil's
That means Kapil was not the Asia's most potent bowler (High SR), he's not even the most economical, because he's on par with Vaas, but Vaas has a better SR and and average. As and ODI bowler Kapil is not even in the top 5 seamers of Asia (which i believe Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Imran and Vaas, perhaps Aaqib Javed as well)

 

[weldone]

Wrong. There's no connection between batsman's SR and their average unlike a bowler.

You have no idea what you are talking about:

Bowler's average = runs per wicket
Batsman's average = runs per wicket

Bowler's ER = runs per fixed no. of deliveries
Batsman's SR = runs per fixed no. of deliveries

If they don't sound similar to you, then I would prefer not to discuss cricket statistics with you.

 

[weldone]

Vaas' figures are better than Kapil's

When did I say otherwise?

All of Imran, Kapil, Waqar and Vaas are comparable as ODI bowlers, while Murali and Wasim is clearly the better ones.

The story is different for test matches (which sometimes incorrectly cloud our judgement for ODIs as well).

 

[Migara]

You have no idea what you are talking about:

Bowler's average = runs per wicket
Batsman's average = runs per wicket

Bowler's ER = runs per fixed no. of deliveries
Batsman's SR = runs per fixed no. of deliveries

If they don't sound similar to you, then I would prefer not to discuss cricket statistics with you.

And I may just mention you that bowers has a fixed quota of deliveries while batsman has none. and Batsman's average is runs per dismissal, which includes runout and other odd ways of getting out. For a given period, batting average is not euql to bowling average when you consider all the batsmen and bowlers.