• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

3rd Greatest Cricketer - The Poll

After Bradman and Sobers, who is the 3rd Greatest Cricketer ?

  • Total voters
    78
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
As bad as you're trying to paint them, they were not that poor in comparison to the S.Africa and WIndies Grimmett faced. The figures he has against them are the kinds of figures Murali has against B/Z - very low SRs and AVGs. Neither Warne nor Murali have those kinds of figures against most of the teams they played, which you're calling poor players of spin.

Also, who is to say that England in Grimmett's time were anywhere near India of the 90s? Maybe they were simply as good as Pakistan were during Warne's time. You're assuming a lot with very little.
 
Last edited:
Uppercut

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Since the beginning of Warne's career England average 34 against spin, South Africa 36, New Zealand 31 and the West Indies 33.

The West Indies during Grimmett's career averaged 20 against spin and South Africa averaged 25.

Weldone is wrong. [/discussion]
 
weldone

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Ha ha amusing to see how 'average against spin' is calculated here. So, average in any match where spinners played = average against spin? :P
 
Uppercut

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
No. Otherwise England would be losing only 5 wickets per match since 1992.

Stop digging! :p
 
Last edited:
weldone

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
What?

Average against spinners should be calculated as 'how many runs they made against spinners' divided by 'how many wickets they offered the spinners'.

And not as 'how many runs they made against all bowlers in games where they had to face a spinner' divided by 'how many wickets they lost to all bowlers in matches where they had to face a spinner'.

No? Or, should I need to forget everything I know about the subject of statistics, and start from (1+1=2) again?
 
Last edited:
Uppercut

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
weldone said:
Average against spinners should be calculated as 'how many runs they made against spinners' divided by 'how many wickets they offered the spinners'.
Click to expand...
If I calculated this figure, and it showed a similar trend, would you admit to being wrong?
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
weldone said:
Ha ha amusing to see how 'average against spin' is calculated here. So, average in any match where spinners played = average against spin? :P
Click to expand...
It's the average of spinners bowling against the aforementioned teams. Isn't that precisely what you want?
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Uppercut said:
Since the beginning of Warne's career England average 34 against spin, South Africa 36, New Zealand 31 and the West Indies 33.

The West Indies during Grimmett's career averaged 20 against spin and South Africa averaged 25.

Weldone is wrong. [/discussion]
Click to expand...
For a fair comparison, post the overall average of bastmen during those times as well. Even then I'd think, opposition of Grimmet's time was poorer against spin.
 
weldone

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Ya true. Was posting from office, so posted in a hurry. Missed the hyperlinks. I stand corrected on this.

Still it doesn't prove a thing for Warne or against Grimmett. Even if SA or WI were worse against spin during Grimmett's time than SA, Eng, WI, NZ during Warne's time, the fact remains that Grimmett's record against SA and WI are much better than Warne's against those countries. Are you trying to say that Warne would average 5 runs per wicket against the SA or WI that Grimmett bowled to?
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
WI was quite strong against spin during Warnes time. Lara, Hooper and Chanderpaul were very capable players of spin. SAF had Cullinan and Cronje who were very good against spin (Cullinan had a problem against Warne, but did very well against Murali, Kumble and Mustaq). ENG was hopeless, NZ was somewhere there but not as bad as ENG. Thinking that these two teams are as worse as WI and SAF of 1930's makes no sense.
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
In total agreement with Migara. From my understanding, WI and SA of Grimmett's time were minnows and certainly weren't in Warne//Murali's time.

It's like judging how Hadlee did against Sri Lanka in the 80s and saying that it is better than how McGrath did against them in the 90s/00s; when Sri Lanka were much better in McGrath's time.
 
weldone

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
South Africa's batting against spin bowling during Grimmett's time (working from Uppercut's link):

Against Grimmett: 1199 runs for 77 wickets @ 15.57 (absolute dustbin trash :) )

Against all spinners other than Grimmett: 5375 runs for 178 wickets @ 30.20 (not trash!)

Overall (against all spinners including Grimmett): 6574 runs for 255 wickets @ 25.78 (trash, again :) )

The fact that Grimmett took one-third of those wickets for peanuts makes the average look trash.
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
The other comparable spinner, O'Reilly, took 34 wickets at 18.64 against SA. Considering Grimmett took a third of the wickets of spinners against S.Africa, it means they played very few spinners other than these guys and it would probably show. List the spinners and source your stats. I am willing to bet the spinners that make that stat look good come from WIndies or NZ or lesser known English spinners.

With regards to WIndies, whether or not you include Grimmett's haul they're still poor.
 
Last edited:
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Also, not sure if the S.Africa that Grimmett faced in 1931 was anything like the one that others faced in 1925 (which is when the sample starts from). For example, the SA Peebles bowled to in 1927 and the one Grimmett bowled to in 1931 has about 3 same players (one a bowler).
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
weldone said:
Not really. Besides the 3 great spinners of that time (O'Reilly, Grimmett and Verity), most of the other wickets come from English or Aussie spinners (Freeman, Peebles, Staples, White, Robbins):

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
Click to expand...
So any spinner worth a damn did well against them and the also-rans and all-rounders didn't. Of those that took 10 or more wickets only Jack White seems to have been troubled. The rest were at worst the same as their career figures or much better.
 
Last edited:
weldone

weldone

Hall of Fame Member
Grimmett took the wickets of their best 2 batsmen during the era many a times - Bruce Mitchell and Dudley Nourse...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top