What is more difficult: Facing a quality pace attack or Facing a quality spin attack?

[aussie]

Ah, so what you're saying is that two excellent spinners on a proper turning track is the equal of three excellent pacers at Perth. We have an answer, thread can be closed.

No bad choice of words by me in the statement instead of equate i should have said "compare". Since we are comparing which is more difficult; a top pace attack on bouncy deck/greentop vs a top spin attack on a dustbowl.(whether its 4 vs 4 or 2 vs 2)

 

[vcs]

If would be though. The 319 in Chennai was definately on utter road. No questions.

iF Steyn 7 for on a durban greentop & Sehwag scored a run a ball 200 in a Indian score of 300. That double Sehwag scored would be worth more than the 319 because for a batsman to be considered really quality he needs to score againts a quality pace attacks in testing conditions instead of just on roads. Since thats the only time when a fast-bowler/pace attack (Dale Steyn) is in his/their "domain" (Durban greentop) Thus dominating him/the attack in his/their "domain" (a bowler friendly deck or conditions) is worth more than dominating the fast-bowler/attack good/great/world-class on a road.

Sehwag has dominated Steyn on "roads" in India. Steyn has dominated Sehwag on greentops in SA.

Conclusion : Steyn = Sehwag.

 

[Ikki]

As long as we're adding clauses of convenience at will, let's also add 'against as many types of individual opponents as possible'.

That's my point though. That one difference isn't really important. Whilst you'd hope a batsman was as good against spin as he is against pace, it is more beneficial to have him better against the latter. If an attack he faces is made up of 3 pacers and 1 spinner...well you get the idea.

So the subcontinental batsman is doing well. Noted for future reference

you're looking for wfdu_ben91.

 

[G.I.Joe]

That's my point though. That one difference isn't really important. Whilst you'd hope a batsman was as good against spin as he is against pace, it is more beneficial to have him better against the latter. If an attack he faces is made up of 3 pacers and 1 spinner...well you get the idea.

Yeah, Ikki, but similarly a batsman who averages more by virtue of playing more on the subcontinent compared to one who doesn't should have the same principle of superiority afforded by utilitarian benefit extended to him too. That's all I'm saying.

you're looking for wfdu_ben91.

AWTA

 

[G.I.Joe]

Sehwag has dominated Steyn on "roads" in India. Steyn has dominated Sehwag on greentops in SA.

Conclusion : Steyn = Sehwag.

The more I read your posts, the more I'm getting convinced that Steyn is a ****ing Green top bully



POST IN JEST etc etc




Or is it?

 

[vcs]

The more I read your posts, the more I'm getting convinced that Steyn is a ****ing Green top bully



POST IN JEST etc etc




Or is it?

Yep, tongue slightly in cheek there. Steyn is clearly no green-top bully. But I see people dismissing all of Sehwag's knocks.. surely there aren't that many flat-tracks going around for an opening batsman who struggles against anything approaching quality pace (in the eyes of some) to average over 50?

 

[aussie]

Sehwag has dominated Steyn on "roads" in India. Steyn has dominated Sehwag on greentops in SA.

Conclusion : Steyn = Sehwag.

Steyn has also dominated Sehwag on greentops in India. See Ahmedabad & Kanpur 2008.
So its cleary Steyn > Sehwag until Sehwag dominates Steyn on a greentop.

 

[vcs]

Steyn has also dominated Sehwag on greentops in India. See Ahmedabad & Kanpur 2008.
So its cleary Steyn > Sehwag until Sehwag dominates Steyn on a greentop.

I'm sure Sehwag averages something obscene against SA in India in matches involving Steyn. SA have done better in India than India have done in SA, yes, but that is because Sehwag hasn't been backed up well by his teammates unlike Steyn. Look how well S. African batsmen have done in India for example. I'd call it even-stevens so far.

Also, a greentop is a greentop no matter where it is, isn't it?

 

[indiacricket]

I would say spin

 

[aussie]

Steyn has also dominated Sehwag on greentops in India. See Ahmedabad & Kanpur 2008.
So its cleary Steyn > Sehwag until Sehwag dominates Steyn on a greentop.

I'm sure Sehwag averages something obscene against SA in India in matches involving Steyn. SA have done better in India than India have done in SA, yes, but that is because Sehwag hasn't been backed up well by his teammates unlike Steyn. Look how well S. African batsmen have done in India for example. I'd call it even-stevens so far.

Also, a greentop is a greentop no matter where it is, isn't it?

Yes Sehwag averages very high vs SA in India with matches Steyn has played. All im saying is the only two times in Ahmedabad & Kanpur when Steyn bowled to Sehwag on South African like greentops in India - he owned Sehwag just like he did back in 2006/07 in SA, when he averaged 14 in that series.

This is why i say Sehwag is a genius on flat tracks & turning tracks(which are mainly found in the sub-continent). But poor to mediocre on greentops & bouncy decks (which are mainly found overseas).

He needs to improve on the latter to be considered a great opener. To date he is the batting version of what Anil Kumble was with the ball for in the 1990s. Which is a phenomenon at home - average/poor overseas.

 

[aussie]

Spin is more difficult. Part time pace bowlers have never taken 6 for 9 unlike part time spinners.

These quicks may not be part-time. But average pacers have taken big hauls in testing conditons good teams. Off my head:

- Daren Sammy took 7 wickets vs ENG 07

- Mark Whitney 7 for vs IND 93 (I think)

- Jermaine Lawson 7 vs AUS 03

- Agarkar 6 for vs AUS 03

- Mrev Dillon took 23 wickets in a series vs IND 2002

Probably a few more in test history as well.

Haha now wait a minute. How many great innings have we seen in the 90s by batsmen against great bowling attacks on green tops without them giving away chances?

I'm not sure. They could very well & be some. But why is them "giving away chances" important?.

 

[Himannv]

Depends on far too many factors. Some batsmen would be at home facing quality seam bowling and some would be at home facing quality spin. Also depends alot on the pitch for obvious reasons. personally think that top notch fast bowlers on a minefield in exceptional conditions that favour swing will be tougher to face.

 

[Shri]

These quicks may not be part-time. But average pacers have taken big hauls in testing conditons good teams. Off my head:

- Daren Sammy took 7 wickets vs ENG 07

- Mark Whitney 7 for vs IND 93 (I think)

- Jermaine Lawson 7 vs AUS 03

- Agarkar 6 for vs AUS 03

- Mrev Dillon took 23 wickets in a series vs IND 2002

Probably a few more in test history as well.

They are all genuine bowlers. Not batsmen who bowl unlike Clarke and Border.

I'm not sure. They could very well & be some. But why is them "giving away chances" important?.

That isn't important. Sleepy posting ftw. But my point stands. There can only be a handful of good innings on a green deck in the history of the game. If someone not used to those conditions doesn't play a great innings, I wouldn't hold it against him.

 

[aussie]

They are all genuine bowlers. Not batsmen who bowl unlike Clarke and Border.

- Hammond vs AUS 1937

- M Waugh vs ENG 1995

- Bev Congdon vs IND 1976


- S Waugh vs SA 94. His other two 5 wicket hauls where early in his career when he was considered an all-rounder

- D Walters vs WI 73. Took a few 4 wicket hauls in his career also & had reputation of being a dangerous part-timer/partnership breaker.

- G Chappell vs PAK 1973

Probably more as well. But the thing is, its fairly difficult for part-timers seamers to attain such accodales of taking 5-wicket haul. Given that usually, the bowler friendly conditons that they would need to produce these freak events usually is in the 1st innings, when teams would use their main bowlers. The likely scenario is suddenly a freak occurance may happen during the period of a match, where captain tries a part-time seamer on a overcast day - he troubles batsmen - takes a big haul.

With part time spinners though. 5th day wickets are always going turn - thats a sure thing - no freak occurance. Teams generally try part-time spinners on 5th day wickets to support the main spinner & alot of times you see average spinners taken wickets in such circumstances. Such as:

- Marcus North @ Lords 2010 & Oval 09

- Katch vs ZIM 03

- Carl Hooper a few times in his career

- Clarke vs IND @ SCG 08

- M Waugh vs IND @ Mumbai 01

- Tendulkar vs AUS @ Kolkatta 01

etc etc etc

That isn't important. Sleepy posting ftw. But my point stands. There can only be a handful of good innings on a green deck in the history of the game. If someone not used to those conditions doesn't play a great innings, I wouldn't hold it against him.

I'm sure they are more than a handful of good innings by top batsmen vs quality pace attacks on a green/bouncy deck. All the batsmen in test history who have earnt the accolade of "great" have done it more than once i'm sure.

Cricketer dont just play in home conditons, that they are accustomed to. They tour & would obvously face alien conditons & have to adapt. If they dont they wont have successful careers. So you definately have to hold it againts batsmen who dont adapt.

 

[Teja.]

Yes Sehwag averages very high vs SA in India with matches Steyn has played. All im saying is the only two times in Ahmedabad & Kanpur when Steyn bowled to Sehwag on South African like greentops in India - he owned Sehwag just like he did back in 2006/07 in SA, when he averaged 14 in that series.

This is why i saw is say Sehwag is a genius on flat tracks & turning tracks(which are mainly found in the sub-continent). But poor to mediocre on greentops & bouncy decks (which are mainly found overseas).

He needs to improve on the latter to be considered a great opener. To date he is the batting version of what Anil Kumble was with the ball for in the 1990s. Which is a phenomenon at home - average/poor overseas.

FTR, When Steyn was bowling the spell of his life(7-49 IIRC) in Kanpur, and eight Batsman could not make it to double digits, Sehwag scored a brilliant counter-attacking century.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Blame ICC who made dustbowls a thing of the past. That is why modern spinners have struggled. Give Harby Mumbai 04 dustbowls and he'll average in the lower 20s...

And Michael Clarke will average 1.5...

Think it's a fair point though, that there's definitely been a bit of an over-correction following that pitch.

 

[Prince EWS]

There is no real answer to this.

If facing one is easier than the other, there are only two conclusions you can draw, IMO:

1. The batsman/batsmen in question are more comfortable facing one than the other.
2. The quality of the two attacks in question is not the same.

 

[TumTum]

Well the fact is there has hardly ever been a "quality spin attack".

 

[honestbharani]

Steyn has also dominated Sehwag on greentops in India. See Ahmedabad & Kanpur 2008.
So its cleary Steyn > Sehwag until Sehwag dominates Steyn on a greentop.

hmmm.. why should it not work the other way? Sehwag dominates Steyn on flat tracks.. So Steyn is Sehwag's bitch till he dominates him on a flat track.......

 

[BoyBrumby]

It's probably spin at the highest level; although one very rarely sees batsmen who have pronounced weakness against pace per se having long test careers but some who're not fantastic against spin (Stewart and Robin Smith are the first two who came to mind) can be successful at the highest level.

I suppose this is partly a reflection of the seam/spin ratio in the average bowling attack. Although also, perhaps, "pace" is too large a catch-all term; some players are weak against swing, others are troubled by movement off the seam and then some struggle with bounce.