****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

[Furball]

IMO it doesn't really have to do with fitness level differences (or lack of) over the ages. The number of FC games people like Rhodes, Hobbs etc played are staggering. Agreed, it's a step down from Test cricket, but time spent on the field is still energy expended.

Australia's tour of England 2009:

5 Tests
2 FC tour games
1 4 day game
1 2 day game
2 T20Is
8 ODIs (1 v Scotland)

1989:

6 Tests
14 FC tour games
3 ODIs
12 one day tour games

 

[Sir Alex]

Australia's tour of England 2009:

5 Tests
2 FC tour games
1 4 day game
1 2 day game
2 T20Is
8 ODIs (1 v Scotland)

1989:

6 Tests
14 FC tour games
3 ODIs
12 one day tour games

14!!! FC games!! Unbelievable!

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I will always give the edge to Lara.

1. Lara averages more vs the great attacks that both players played against (WW, Donald/Pollock, and Mcwarne) dont believe me then just try statsguru at cricinfo.

I am not sure if anyone called you out on this,but this is factually incorrect.

Firstly,what you have to understand is that the following samples are :

1. Ridiculously small to make any significant judgement.
2. Misleading in that the bowlers in question may not even have bowled to the player.Tendu for ex,averages close to 40 in the 4 matches he played that had both Waqar and Wasim.Now he may have scored 40 runs all off Wasim and then got out to Afridi - what does it prove?(just an example btw).

But since you mention it :

1.Against Wasim and Waqar :

Tendulkar averages 39.71 with 1 century
Lara averages 32.18 with no century

In Pak against Wasim and Waqar : Lara 23, Tendulkar 35.66

2.Against Donald and Pollock :

Tendulkar averages 38.70 with 1 century
Lara averages 33.33 with no century

In SA against Donald and Pollock : Tendulkar 40.16,Lara 31.00

3.Against McGrath and Warne :

Lara averages 51.03 with 4 centuries
Tendulkar averages 42.28 with 2 centuries

In Australia against McGrath and Warne : Tendulkar averages 46.33(1 MoS award),Lara averages 40.11 (over a larger sample size though)

4.Against Ambrose and Walsh

Tendulkar played only 4 innings,all in WI,against Walsh and Ambrose scoring 2 50s and averaged 64.33


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that was just to show that what Mr Incredible claimed was false.Those sample sizes are ridiculous and not really indicative of anything.Lara averages in the 30s in matches involving Vettori if I'm not mistaken,but tell anyone that Vettori troubled Lara and they'll laugh at you...at best.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raw overall stats :

Tendulkar 168 matches,274 innings,13742 runs @ 56.02 with 48 tons and 55 fifties
Lara 131 matches,232 innings,11953 runs @ 52.88 with 34 tons and 48 fifties


The most telling stat for me is this :

Lara away from home : 66 matches,121 innings,5736 runs@47.80 with 17 centuries
Tendu away from home : 94 matches,152 innings,7724 runs@56.37 with 27 centuries (yes Bang does inflate that a little but the difference is still significant+Tendu's record in Zim is ordinary).

There is this argument that Tendu never scored 500+ runs or whatever in a series but can someone tell me how many 5 test series Tendu has played vis-a-vis Lara?I don't know how to check that on cricinfo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chances are that Tendu will end up with 16000 runs and close to 60 tons.If he does that,he will,IMO,be superior to Lara statistically without question,especially if he maintains his superior average.

And this wasn't to take a shot at Lara or anything.He is an ATG in his own right and there is very little that separates him and Tendu(or any other ATG for that matter).All down to personal opinion but it is still fun having a Lara vs Tendu discussion

 

[Cevno]

Speaking of tour games .

Were the rules as strict as test cricket ,with no player allowed to go on rest and batsmen not retiring whne the saw fit ?

Or where they like Tour games with 13 bowlers and everyone putting their shoulders down and enjoying it without the pressure because that does not require even 1/4th of the intensity test cricket does.

 

[Furball]

Speaking of tour games .

Were the rules as strict as test cricket ,with no player allowed to go on rest and batsmen not retiring whne the saw fit ?

Or where they like Tour games with 13 bowlers and everyone putting their shoulders down and enjoying it without the pressure because that does not require even 1/4th of the intensity test cricket does.

No, they were as strict as Test games, otherwise they wouldn't have First Class status. One of Australia's tour games last year lost FC status because the opposition used 12 players.

 

[Sir Alex]

Werent FC games 3 day affairs back then?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Looks like I chose the wrong time to post that

 

[Furball]

Werent FC games 3 day affairs back then?

Yes, but the majority of the down time between Tests was spent travelling to play tour games.

AUSTRALIA IN ENGLAND : MAY/SEP 1989 (6 TESTS)

 

[Slifer]

I am not sure if anyone called you out on this,but this is factually incorrect.

Firstly,what you have to understand is that the following samples are :

1. Ridiculously small to make any significant judgement.
2. Misleading in that the bowlers in question may not even have bowled to the player.Tendu for ex,averages close to 40 in the 4 matches he played that had both Waqar and Wasim.Now he may have scored 40 runs all off Wasim and then got out to Afridi - what does it prove?(just an example btw).

But since you mention it :

1.Against Wasim and Waqar :

Tendulkar averages 39.71 with 1 century
Lara averages 32.18 with no century

In Pak against Wasim and Waqar : Lara 23, Tendulkar 35.66

2.Against Donald and Pollock :

Tendulkar averages 38.70 with 1 century
Lara averages 33.33 with no century

In SA against Donald and Pollock : Tendulkar 40.16,Lara 31.00

3.Against McGrath and Warne :

Lara averages 51.03 with 4 centuries
Tendulkar averages 42.28 with 2 centuries

In Australia against McGrath and Warne : Tendulkar averages 46.33(1 MoS award),Lara averages 40.11 (over a larger sample size though)

4.Against Ambrose and Walsh

Tendulkar played only 4 innings,all in WI,against Walsh and Ambrose scoring 2 50s and averaged 64.33


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that was just to show that what Mr Incredible claimed was false.Those sample sizes are ridiculous and not really indicative of anything.Lara averages in the 30s in matches involving Vettori if I'm not mistaken,but tell anyone that Vettori troubled Lara and they'll laugh at you...at best.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raw overall stats :

Tendulkar 168 matches,274 innings,13742 runs @ 56.02 with 48 tons and 55 fifties
Lara 131 matches,232 innings,11953 runs @ 52.88 with 34 tons and 48 fifties


The most telling stat for me is this :

Lara away from home : 66 matches,121 innings,5736 runs@47.80 with 17 centuries
Tendu away from home : 94 matches,152 innings,7724 runs@56.37 with 27 centuries (yes Bang does inflate that a little but the difference is still significant+Tendu's record in Zim is ordinary).

There is this argument that Tendu never scored 500+ runs or whatever in a series but can someone tell me how many 5 test series Tendu has played vis-a-vis Lara?I don't know how to check that on cricinfo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chances are that Tendu will end up with 16000 runs and close to 60 tons.If he does that,he will,IMO,be superior to Lara statistically without question,especially if he maintains his superior average.

And this wasn't to take a shot at Lara or anything.He is an ATG in his own right and there is very little that separates him and Tendu(or any other ATG for that matter).All down to personal opinion but it is still fun having a Lara vs Tendu discussion

I read thru MR Incredible's analysis and if ne thing it just shows what a poorer travller Lara was as compared to SRT thats all. BTW what are their respective averages vs Murali and Vaas together? Also playing 5 tests in a series is irrelevant, Lara scored 500 + in 3 tests and 4 match test series. Also please post how many runs SRT had scored after he had played the same number of innings as Lara. Lastly, I honestly think that regardless Lara would have never ended up with an average higher than Sachin, he just isnt that type of batsman. Ive watched him his entire career and (for those who say he is selfish) there were so many times when the guy was the last or 2nd to last man out (ex 226, 221 & 130, 176, 202, 196, 191 etc) and he could have plodded around to plod his avrage (ala Shiv) but he didnt. He tried (often in vain) to score as many runs as possible in the interest of his team.

 

[R_D]

know you, mate.. was juz playing along.



Seriously, Jono is as big a SAchin fan as any around here.. Why can't the others learn a thing or two from him?

Normally you post well but than you get emotional and get carried away and go down to their levels.
Especially when it comes to Lara. You should just learn to ignore and its always the same people.... saying same things.

 

[vcs]

Why does Lara have so few not-outs? He averages about 1.5 runs per innings more than Tendulkar.

 

[Slifer]

Why does Lara have so few not-outs? He averages about 1.5 runs per innings more than Tendulkar.

See my explanation above and just the temperament of the man. Case in point Shiv playing alongside Lara for much of his career has many more not outs and as a result has an ave (49 or there about) with in striking distance of Lara's. However, Lara scored many more runs per test

 

[Sir Alex]

Just checked Tendulkar's not outs and he has 15 100s out of those 29 instances where he remained not out. An analysis of all his not out innings as below, do scroll to the right to view my remarks.

Runs  	BF  	SR  	Pos  	Inns  	Opposition  	Ground  	Date	Remarks
119* 	189	62.96	6	4	v England 	Manchester 	9-Aug-90	Epic test saving innings
148* 	213	69.48	6	2	v Australia 	Sydney 		2-Jan-92	Another epic innings
9* 	19	47.36	4	4	v England 	Kolkata 	29-Jan-93	India won
104* 	161	64.59	4	3	v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (SSC) 	27-Jul-93	India won
11* 	42	26.19	4	4	v New Zealand 	Hamilton 	19-Mar-94	Match drawn after set a stiff target
0* 	0	- 	4	4	v New Zealand 	Bangalore 	18-Oct-95	India won
52* 	88	59.09	4	1	v New Zealand 	Chennai 	25-Oct-95	Drawn ; rain
15* 	36	41.66	4	4	v West Indies 	Kingston 	6-Mar-97	Drawn, test saving effort
155* 	191	81.15	4	3	v Australia 	Chennai 	6-Mar-98	India won
124* 	235	52.76	4	3	v Sri Lanka 	Colombo (SSC) 	24-Feb-99	Bore draw
126* 	248	50.8	4	3	v New Zealand 	Mohali 		10-Oct-99	Draw,India allout for 83 in 1st inngs
44* 	39	112.82	4	4	v New Zealand 	Kanpur 		22-Oct-99	India won
201* 	281	71.53	4	1	v Zimbabwe 	Nagpur 		25-Nov-00	Set up a huge 1st inngs total
36* 	49	73.46	4	4	v Zimbabwe 	Bulawayo 	7-Jun-01	India won
22* 	45	48.88	4	4	v South Africa 	Port Elizabeth 	16-Nov-01	Matchsaving effort
16* 	20	80	4	4	v West Indies 	Chennai 	17-Oct-02	India won
241* 	436	55.27	4	1	v Australia 	Sydney 		2-Jan-04	Epic innings
60* 	89	67.41	4	3	v Australia 	Sydney 		2-Jan-04	Follow up to the above
194* 	348	55.74	4	1	v Pakistan 	Multan 		28-Mar-04	India won
32* 	64	50	4	4	v South Africa 	Kolkata 	28-Nov-04	India won
248* 	379	65.43	4	2	v Bangladesh 	Dhaka 		10-Dec-04	India won
28* 	19	147.36	6	4	v England 	Nagpur 		1-Mar-06	Draw
122* 	226	53.98	4	1	v Bangladesh 	Dhaka 		25-May-07	India won
56* 	110	50.9	4	4	v Pakistan 	Delhi 		22-Nov-07	India won
154* 	243	63.37	4	2	v Australia 	Sydney 		2-Jan-08	That test match! 
10* 	12	83.33	5	3	v Australia 	Mohali 		17-Oct-08	India won
103* 	196	52.55	4	4	v England 	Chennai 	11-Dec-08	India won epic 4th innings 100
100* 	211	47.39	5	3	v Sri Lanka 	Ahmedabad 	16-Nov-09	Bore draw
105* 	166	63.25	4	1	v Bangladesh 	Chittagong 	17-Jan-10	India won

Apart from 2-3 innings, all of Tendulkar's efforts have been in saving/winning the test match.

15 of those not outs were in winning cause. 7 were in draws where his innings helped India to save or gain dominance in that test match. Then there are the efforts in Sydney last year and in 1991-92 and Perth in the same year.

 

[Sir Alex]

See my explanation above and just the temperament of the man. Case in point Shiv playing alongside Lara for much of his career has many more not outs and as a result has an ave (49 or there about) with in striking distance of Lara's. However, Lara scored many more runs per test

We are not comparing Shiv and Lara here. Fact that Lara did not have not outs does not in anyway gives him and edge/ or lose that in a comparison with tendulkar.

 

[honestbharani]

IMO it doesn't really have to do with fitness level differences (or lack of) over the ages. The number of FC games people like Rhodes, Hobbs etc played are staggering. Agreed, it's a step down from Test cricket, but time spent on the field is still energy expended.

Plus the FC cricket in those days was not so much detached from test cricket in terms of standards...

 

[Sir Alex]

Plus the FC cricket in those days was not so much detached from test cricket in terms of standards...

More to do with test cricket being on a lower plane than FC being on a higher one imho.

 

[Slifer]

We are not comparing Shiv and Lara here. Fact that Lara did not have not outs does not in anyway gives him and edge/ or lose that in a comparison with tendulkar.

The question was asked as to y Lara has so few not outs. I offered a response and used Shiv because he is the only class WI batsman to play along Lara. both have been a part of a pathetic WI team yet Shiv has many more not outs than Lara. Y? Lara didnt play for Not outs he tried to score as quickly as he canb to give his team a chance. And I can compare Lara with whomever i like thank u very much

 

[honestbharani]

Normally you post well but than you get emotional and get carried away and go down to their levels.
Especially when it comes to Lara. You should just learn to ignore and its always the same people.... saying same things.

It is not about getting emotional.. You see that it always happenes with Lara but it is not just because I am a big fan, which I am.. I never deny that. The fact is, everytime ANYTHING is mentioned where Sachin is supposedly second best in some's opinion, it is the same drivel that starts coming out... And in most cases in CW, this means a batting comparison in tests and hence involves Lara...


And we did see some of this drivel in the ODI thread as well, where the target happened to be Viv Richards. Yes, it is the same people but doesn't mean we just let them harp on with their drivel all the time, esp. when they so obviously have NFI on the people they are posting about.


This was a place for some excellent cricket debate until some of these fanboys came along.. For some reason, the "country" fanboys seem a LOT more tolerable these days than "player" fanboys...

 

[honestbharani]

More to do with test cricket being on a lower plane than FC being on a higher one imho.

Well, as with most things, read up on it!!!!!!!

 

[vcs]

Actually the drivel in the Richards vs Tendulkar ODI thread was coming mostly from the Richards fan and very derogatory towards Tendulkar. I remember that because it was one of the first threads here where I started posting. Mind you, I don't know who started it.