****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

[Sir Alex]

No more pathetic than the 14 tests SRT has played vs ZIm/Bang as opposed to 4 for Lara. And not ne more pathetic than the current SL attack or ne other current attack. I mean seriously i rate SRT higher and all but if Lara were playing right now, i see no reason why he wouldnt thrive. No Mcgrath to torment him . he would gorge on SL, NZ, RSA etc.

His record against India for example? Why was that relatively poor for a man who feasted on good attacks?

I am not undermining Lara's career or achievements, but let's not kid ourselves by resorting to silly stuff like Lara was at his peak when he retired blah blah. Fact is he was not, he was well on the way down, and more than anyone he understood it. Still he was head and shoulders above other WI batsmen.

 

[Slifer]

And I wonder how can anyone make such a claim when the debate over Lara being the best of his Generation is not settled yet.

Doesnt stop billions of his most ardent fans from crowning him the greatest cricketer of al time, yes even better than Bradman and Sobers.

 

[mohammad16]

It is not Tendulkar's fault he debuted at 16 while Lara did only at 20-21, if you take out those 16-20 years, Tendulkar's stats are even better.

But that is not the point.

Nobody asked Lara to retire. He realised he didnt have enough in his tank to continue after 2007.

Lara's last year was pretty mediocre to be honest. He was actually dire for most part of it, till the series in Pakistan happened, and Lara made lots of runs against pathetic attack on flatbeds. The Pakistani attack comprised of luminaries like Umar Gul, Shahid Nazir, Kaneria and Abdul Razzak as 3rd seamer option lol! You had Mohammad Hafeez and Shoiab malik as second and third spinners and one get the idea how good that bowling attack was.

Zidane didnt have to retire after the world cup, neither did Michael Jordan have to retire after winning his 6th title, players dont simply retire because they have nothing left in their tanks, there are a million other reasons to retire, loss of interest, sense of achievement, wanting to spend more time with family, wanting to give youngsters a chance etc. There is an endless list of individual all time great sportsmen who have retired early while still being at prime form. Inzamam was also in prime form when he retired.

I actually have respect for great players who dont drag their careers on and on for statistical purposes. I am not saying that Tendulkar is doing this, but its silly to not recognize that all these great players could have easily played 4-5 more years and racked up a hell of a lot of runs or goals or points. We all know Lara could still be playing today, playing very well, that is all besides the point.

Michael Jordan famously said "When I loose the sense of having to prove something as a basketball player, its time for me to move away from the game of basketball". Honestly that is how it should be.

 

[Slifer]

His record against India for example? Why was that relatively poor for a man who feasted on good attacks?

I am not undermining Lara's career or achievements, but let's not kid ourselves by resorting to silly stuff like Lara was at his peak when he retired blah blah. Fact is he was not, he was well on the way down, and more than anyone he understood it. Still he was head and shoulders above other WI batsmen.

His record against India is irrelevant due to the fact that WI havent played India since he retired. Since Laras retired WI have played: Oz home and away (minus Mcgrath), RSA home and away, Bang , Eng home and away and NZ (minus Bond). Cant see ne of these teams stoppin him tbh. I mean they sure as hel didnt stop SHiv....

 

[Sir Alex]

Zidane didnt have to retire after the world cup, neither did Michael Jordan have to retire after winning his 6th title, players dont simply retire because they have nothing left in their tanks, there are a million other reasons to retire, loss of interest, sense of achievement, wanting to spend more time with family, wanting to give youngsters a chance etc. There is an endless list of individual all time great sportsmen who have retired early while still being at prime form. Inzamam was also in prime form when he retired.

I actually have respect for great players who dont drag their careers on and on for statistical purposes. I am not saying that Tendulkar is doing this, but its silly to not recognize that all these great players could have easily played 4-5 more years and racked up a hell of a lot of runs or goals or points. We all know Lara could still be playing today, playing very well, that is all besides the point.

Michael Jordan famously said "When I loose the sense of having to prove something as a basketball player, its time for me to move away from the game of basketball". Honestly that is how it should be.

Do you have anywhere Lara saying this? And do you have any proof that Lara would have continued to do this till date?

 

[Sanz]

Zidane didnt have to retire after the world cup, neither did Michael Jordan have to retire after winning his 6th title, players dont simply retire because they have nothing left in their tanks, there are a million other reasons to retire, loss of interest, sense of achievement, wanting to spend more time with family, wanting to give youngsters a chance etc. There is an endless list of individual all time great sportsmen who have retired early while still being at prime form. Inzamam was also in prime form when he retired.

I actually have respect for great players who dont drag their careers on and on for statistical purposes. I am not saying that Tendulkar is doing this, but its silly to not recognize that all these great players could have easily played 4-5 more years and racked up a hell of a lot of runs or goals or points. We all know Lara could still be playing today, playing very well, that is all besides the point.

Michael Jordan famously said "When I loose the sense of having to prove something as a basketball player, its time for me to move away from the game of basketball". Honestly that is how it should be.

The flaw in your logic is that both Jordan (twice) and Lara came out of retirement (to play in ICL) ?

 

[Shri]

Lara will be playing in the next edition of the IPL too btw.

 

[mohammad16]

Do you have anywhere Lara saying this? And do you have any proof that Lara would have continued to do this till date?

Why do you need proof? Why is this about proof anyways? This is pretty simple, If Lara was set to out do Tendulkar in the overall tests runs race, why would he retire when he still was capable of scoring big runs? We know he was still capable of scoring big and that too coupled with the fact how scoring has continued to become ever easier since his retirement. Even if he couldnt win that race, at least he could have brought himself closer... but that was not a priority for him, he got what he wanted out of the game, he thrilled and entertained, set a lot of records on the way and at the same time had tremendous amounts of respect and admiration for Tendulkar.

I mean Tendulkar can go out and get 100 centuries, I could care less to be honest, I dont admire Tendulkar for his stats, that would frankly be an insult to the type of player he is. Tendulkar is an all time great for all the reasons Lara is, IMO Lara just edges him as a better test batsmen.

 

[Sir Alex]

The flaw in your logic is that both Jordan (twice) and Lara came out of retirement (to play in ICL) ?

And that he was an utterflop in that ICL.

 

[mohammad16]

The flaw in your logic is that both Jordan (twice) and Lara came out of retirement (to play in ICL) ?

Where is the flaw? Jordan came back because he felt the urge to compete, not to set new records or increase his point total. Lara also wanted to be involved with the game in some way, but he didnt come back to play test cricket, he was satisfied on that front. Why would you even bring up ICL of all things in a test discussion?

Warne could come back and rack up another 100 wickets, but really who cares? He is still an all time great. What works for Murali in a statistical sense is the better strike rate, more wickets in less amount of time.

 

[Sir Alex]

Why do you need proof? Why is this about proof anyways? This is pretty simple, If Lara was set to out do Tendulkar in the overall tests runs race, why would he retire when he still was capable of scoring big runs? We know he was still capable of scoring big and that too coupled with the fact how scoring has continued to become ever easier since his retirement. Even if he couldnt win that race, at least he could have brought himself closer... but that was not a priority for him, he got what he wanted out of the game, he thrilled and entertained, set a lot of records on the way and at the same time had tremendous amounts of respect and admiration for Tendulkar.

I mean Tendulkar can go out and get 100 centuries, I could care less to be honest, I dont admire Tendulkar for his stats, that would frankly be an insult to the type of player he is. Tendulkar is an all time great for all the reasons Lara is, IMO Lara just edges him as a better test batsmen.

So that begs the counter question. If he was good enough, why did he retire in the first place? Especially knowing without him WI would be a much poorer team and with no real "successor" to take his place??

Please spare us this "unconcerned about records" stuff. He was obsessed with landmarks like any other sportsman would be. There is nothing wrong in that and actually that is a great motivator for anyone to scale greater heights.

You've already admitted you're a blind fan, so there is no point in really trying to justify your fanship. Actually there is no need to. I'd respect you more if you just say you like Lara because you just like him instead of resorting to silly reasoning like this. There is nothing wrong in preferring one player to another. But please don't try to bring in stats/flawed stats/selectivity/rubbish etc to justify that.

 

[mohammad16]

So that begs the counter question. If he was good enough, why did he retire in the first place? Especially knowing without him WI would be a much poorer team and with no real "successor" to take his place??

Please spare us this "unconcerned about records" stuff. He was obsessed with landmarks like any other sportsman would be. There is nothing wrong in that and actually that is a great motivator for anyone to scale greater heights.

You've already admitted you're a blind fan, so there is no point in really trying to justify your fanship. Actually there is no need to. I'd respect you more if you just say you like Lara because you just like him instead of resorting to silly reasoning like this. There is nothing wrong in preferring one player to another. But please don't try to bring in stats/flawed stats/selectivity/rubbish etc to justify that.

There is no IF there, he WAS good enough.

As to why he retired, I pointed out 4-5 legitimate, understandable and acceptable reasons to you, apparently they aren't enough. I don't know what else to say.

As to the rest of your post, it simply reflects poorly on you.

 

[Sir Alex]

Where is the flaw? Jordan came back because he felt the urge to compete, not to set new records or increase his point total. Lara also wanted to be involved with the game in some way, but he didnt come back to play test cricket, he was satisfied on that front. Why would you even bring up ICL of all things in a test discussion?

Warne could come back and rack up another 100 wickets, but really who cares? He is still an all time great. What works for Murali in a statistical sense is the better strike rate, more wickets in less amount of time.

And why do you think Tendulkar is after records then? By the same measure, Sachin plays cricket because he enjoys it immensely, and in the process provides enjoyment for a billion his supporters. You seem to be keen to paint him as one who is after silly records. In that case he wouldn't be playing ODIs as there is nothing really to achieve from them, or even tests for that matter. 100 hundreds target and all didn't exist when he started out his career, did it? He was so good, that targets unravelled themselves in front of him, levels which no other cricketer has seen, those are consequences of his prodigious runmaking ability rather than reasons for it.

 

[akilana]

Do you have anywhere Lara saying this? And do you have any proof that Lara would have continued to do this till date?

There isn't a proof that Lara would not have continued to do well either. It's a futile exercise predicting what he would have done.

 

[vcs]

Where is the flaw? Jordan came back because he felt the urge to compete, not to set new records or increase his point total. Lara also wanted to be involved with the game in some way, but he didnt come back to play test cricket, he was satisfied on that front. Why would you even bring up ICL of all things in a test discussion?

Warne could come back and rack up another 100 wickets, but really who cares? He is still an all time great. What works for Murali in a statistical sense is the better strike rate, more wickets in less amount of time.

Well, Australia would, for starters, if he was to come back and win them the Ashes.

Every bit adds to your legacy, don't you think?

 

[Sir Alex]

There is no IF there, he WAS good enough.

As to why he retired, I pointed out 4-5 legitimate, understandable and acceptable reasons to you, apparently they aren't enough. I don't know what else to say.

As to the rest of your post, it simply reflects poorly on you.

Don't evade the question. You said Lara might have stopped because he wanted to give youngsters a chance. Really? What is the logic in making your way for a much less talented youngster (please tell me who this youngster was too), when he knows that would do more harm than good for his team?

I can say Lara didn't want to damage his averages by continuing to play test cricket at a much lower level than before, but then I wouldn't as I don't think he is that selfish.

But fact is you've as much proof for saying Lara would be averaging same 52 odd even today at 42 years of age, as saying Don Bradman would've averaged 99 playing into his 60s.

 

[Sir Alex]

There isn't a proof that Lara would not have continued to do well either. It's a futile exercise predicting what he would have done.

That's my point exactly. It's a dire argument saying Lara would be as prolific as he was in his heydays should he come back now.

 

[Slifer]

Lara was 'forced' to retire by the WICB. I think it was right b4 the 07 wc in the WI that he announced that he was goin to tretire completey from ODIs to concentrate on tests. Then of course WI crashed out of the WC (with BCL as captain) and as a result i think he lost his motivation to continue with such a mediocre team, plus whatever pressures the board was outting on him.

 

[Slifer]

That's my point exactly. It's a dire argument saying Lara would be as prolific as he was in his heydays should he come back now.

If he came back i dont think he would be as good. But, if he had not retired in 07 and had continued playing up til now i see no reason y he wouldnt thrive like so many others have (ex: Shiv).

 

[Riggins]

Warne could come back and rack up another 100 wickets, but really who cares? He is still an all time great.

I would care. Other than Marto coming back I don't think anything would make me happier than Warney playing in the Ashes this summer. Tell him he doesn't have to train and give him a small fortune and/or an island or something. and heaps of chicks.