****OFFICIAL**** Lara vs Tendulkar Debate Thread

[honestbharani]

With Tendulkar, his first year in FC was continuation of a sterling record he maintained since his schooldays. Lara had a poor first season, a good second season and a poor third season. Hardly stuff to "replace" someone like Viv.

And the real reason Sachin got in so early also had to do with some of the recommendations from Gavaskar... As it were, it wasn't juz FC performances alone and it is not like Lara was a slouch in school cricket or college cricket coz else he won't have made it to his FC team that early in THAT era for the Windies.

 

[Sir Alex]

you do understand the word "context" right? depends on how the averages of others were in the same games.. I know for a fact that he happened to have played on some pretty green tracks back then in the Windies, coz that is mentioned by most of his chroniclers.

Didn't see "context" used in your post.

The question is not whether he was test quality or not, but whether he was good enough to replace someone like Viv, however faded was he. It is a similar argument like Rahul Dravid blocking Pujara's entry into test cricket the last 2-3 years. It could be true in hindsight a few years later, if indeed Pujara stepped upto the role nicely. But as of now, nobody can say. Similarly at that point in time, I really doubt whether Lara was as hyped up as "the next big thing" like Tendulkar was.

 

[Sir Alex]

And the real reason Sachin got in so early also had to do with some of the recommendations from Gavaskar... As it were, it wasn't juz FC performances alone and it is not like Lara was a slouch in school cricket or college cricket coz else he won't have made it to his FC team that early in THAT era for the Windies.

And why did Gavaskar recommend him and not the million other Mumbaiker kids playing alongside him?

 

[Sanz]

Out of interest, I'd be interested to compare Sachin's record in the last however many Tests, and the equivelant from the end of Lara's career.

That is pointless to compare Lara's last 4 year's woth Tendulkar's last 4 years when Tendy is still playing as well as he has ever played.

 

[honestbharani]

And why did Gavaskar recommend him and not the million other Mumbaiker kids playing alongside him?

lol.. not on the basis of his FC record, for sure..



which is my point.


And yes, context was implied in my previous post coz we are talking about figures to GET into the Windies team of that year and unless you show me that there were that many other batsmen with better figures than him, then it is obvious he was being the best out there for the call up. And the fact that the middle order was locked up back then the reason he didn't get to debut sooner.


And juz a bit of advice, plz don't take every word said against Sachin as a criticism of the guy. I may rate Lara the better test batsman but Sachin is EASILY the most memorable cricketer and the first name that is synonymous with the game for me. And I do think Gavaskar was right in recommending Sachin, coz you gotta back that kind of talent, esp. when the other options weren't exactly potential world beaters.

 

[honestbharani]

Didn't see "context" used in your post.

The question is not whether he was test quality or not, but whether he was good enough to replace someone like Viv, however faded was he. It is a similar argument like Rahul Dravid blocking Pujara's entry into test cricket the last 2-3 years. It could be true in hindsight a few years later, if indeed Pujara stepped upto the role nicely. But as of now, nobody can say. Similarly at that point in time, I really doubt whether Lara was as hyped up as "the next big thing" like Tendulkar was.

Try to study up Windies cricket history as much as you do about India. You have no idea how big Lara was over there...

 

[Sanz]

well, he is yet to improve on the area which I feel is the main reason I lean towards Lara being the better test batsman.. Making BIG hundreds. But yes you are right, there are certain things that can't be done. For instance, Sachin cannot again go back to batting for a downright poor team and it is not his fault but Lara did do it. I don't really see why that can be a problem and as I have posted earlier, I do think the Sachin post 2007 Australia tour is, for me, a much closer contender to Lara as a test batsman than he was earlier.

And i think it will be fair to say that IF Tendy has not improved yet on the criteria you have set then there is very little chance that he will for rest of his career so it is reasonable to assume that you are settled in your belief that Lara is better and that is fine with me.

 

[Sir Alex]

Try to study up Windies cricket history as much as you do about India. You have no idea how big Lara was over there...

Sure. Could u please link me to some sites for starters? I mean some sources which talk about Lara's pre FC records and stuff? Genuine query not pisstake. Thanks,

 

[vcs]

And i think it will be fair to say that IF Tendy has not improved yet on the criteria you have set then there is very little chance that he will for rest of his career so it is reasonable to assume that you are settled in your belief that Lara is better and that is fine with me.

Yeah, it's obvious that he starts cramping at 150 odd these days - 300 is pretty much out of the picture for him now because he doesn't strike at more than 60 these days. It doesn't matter though because his standard deviation is as low as it has ever been in his career.

 

[Furball]

That is pointless to compare Lara's last 4 year's woth Tendulkar's last 4 years when Tendy is still playing as well as he has ever played.

I'm not attempting to prove any points or start any arguments, it's just a matter of curiosity.

 

[Sanz]

I'm not attempting to prove any points or start any arguments, it's just a matter of curiosity.

Sorry, Lara in his last 4 years scored @60 with 16 100s,Tendy in last 4 years has scored @58 with 13 100s.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

A bit disappointed Sachin has been rested for the tri-series. Would have been a good opportunity to get an ODI hundred or two given his form. If as I suspect he retires from ODI's after the World Cup he may struggle to get those 4 ODI hundreds he needs to hit 50.

I reckon he wants to keep fit for the tests and the 2011 WC.India play 5 tests at home vs Aus and NZ before heading to SA for a tough 3 tests.

And I don't think he cares too much about ODI centuries now.He's got 46 and the next best is 29

 

[mohammad16]

Well Lara never played as many tests as Sachin but anything over 100 tests is a good bechmark.

Lara tests stats:

131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 34

Tendulkar when he had played just as many (actually one more) :

filtered 1989-2006 132 10469 248* 55.39 35



It isnt even all about statistics to me, but even in that case Lara has his nose ahead. Who knows how many runs he could have piled up had he played for runs and had kept playing, He certainly would have scored just as many if not more runs had he played as many tests as Tendulkar. in fact at the end of his test career, he was still in prime form, probably the best test batsmen in the world. I cited Kaneria as an example because that was one of his last games, Kaneria was still the sole strike bowler in the Pakistan side and in very good form those days, Tendulkar faced upto him but never went after him like Lara did.

If you take statistics out of the equation, the genius Lara continued to exhibit, the utter domination, e.g smashing Murali around against the spin when all the fielders were actually placed to stop him playing in that fashion is just insane.

I just dont understand how anyone can come out and say that Tendulkar is easily the better test batsmen of the two. He maybe the better overall batsmen if you consider his ODI record but certainly Lara remains the premier test batsmen for me since Bradman.

All the statistics do not even do justice to the amount of crucial innings Lara has played, I remember on most occasions, the West Indies top order looking clueless against the bowling, Lara comes in and brings out the counter punch in spectacular fashion. Bowlers always focused on him, yet he still attacked, in India a lot of times the more prized wicket was of Dravid and currently Sehwag. Lara probably would have scored more heavily in a better line up.

Scoring 375 and 400 not out also count for something. Longevity counts for something, but its not enough to settle this argument.

 

[Sir Alex]

Well Lara never played as many tests as Sachin but anything over 100 tests is a good bechmark.

Lara tests stats:

131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 34

Tendulkar when he had played just as many (actually one more) :

filtered 1989-2006 132 10469 248* 55.39 35



It isnt even all about statistics to me, but even in that case Lara has his nose ahead. Who knows how many runs he could have piled up had he played for runs and had kept playing, He certainly would have scored just as many if not more runs had he played as many tests as Tendulkar. in fact at the end of his test career, he was still in prime form, probably the best test batsmen in the world. I cited Kaneria as an example because that was one of his last games, Kaneria was still the sole strike bowler in the Pakistan side and in very good form those days, Tendulkar faced upto him but never went after him like Lara did.

If you take statistics out of the equation, the genius Lara continued to exhibit, the utter domination, e.g smashing Murali around against the spin when all the fielders were actually placed to stop him playing in that fashion is just insane.

I just dont understand how anyone can come out and say that Tendulkar is easily the better test batsmen of the two. He maybe the better overall batsmen if you consider his ODI record but certainly Lara remains the premier test batsmen for me since Bradman.

All the statistics do not even do justice to the amount of crucial innings Lara has played, I remember on most occasions, the West Indies top order looking clueless against the bowling, Lara comes in and brings out the counter punch in spectacular fashion. Bowlers always focused on him, yet he still attacked, in India a lot of times the more prized wicket was of Dravid and currently Sehwag. Lara probably would have scored more heavily in a better line up.

Scoring 375 and 400 not out also count for something. Longevity counts for something, but its not enough to settle this argument.

It is not Tendulkar's fault he debuted at 16 while Lara did only at 20-21, if you take out those 16-20 years, Tendulkar's stats are even better.

But that is not the point.

Nobody asked Lara to retire. He realised he didnt have enough in his tank to continue after 2007.

Lara's last year was pretty mediocre to be honest. He was actually dire for most part of it, till the series in Pakistan happened, and Lara made lots of runs against pathetic attack on flatbeds. The Pakistani attack comprised of luminaries like Umar Gul, Shahid Nazir, Kaneria and Abdul Razzak as 3rd seamer option lol! You had Mohammad Hafeez and Shoiab malik as second and third spinners and one get the idea how good that bowling attack was.

 

[Sir Alex]

Tendulkar since 21 yrs of age,

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

P 136
Runs 11,719
Avg 57.16
100s : 41

 

[Sanz]

Well Lara never played as many tests as Sachin but anything over 100 tests is a good bechmark.

Lara tests stats:

131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 34

Tendulkar when he had played just as many (actually one more) :

filtered 1989-2006 132 10469 248* 55.39 35



It isnt even all about statistics to me, but even in that case Lara has his nose ahead.

Is there a reason why you omitted the No. of Innings played by Tendulkar in the above stat you posted ?

 

[Slifer]

It is not Tendulkar's fault he debuted at 16 while Lara did only at 20-21, if you take out those 16-20 years, Tendulkar's stats are even better.

But that is not the point.

Nobody asked Lara to retire. He realised he didnt have enough in his tank to continue after 2007.

Lara's last year was pretty mediocre to be honest. He was actually dire for most part of it, till the series in Pakistan happened, and Lara made lots of runs against pathetic attack on flatbeds. The Pakistani attack comprised of luminaries like Umar Gul, Shahid Nazir, Kaneria and Abdul Razzak as 3rd seamer option lol! You had Mohammad Hafeez and Shoiab malik as second and third spinners and one get the idea how good that bowling attack was.

No more pathetic than the 14 tests SRT has played vs ZIm/Bang as opposed to 4 for Lara. And not ne more pathetic than the current SL attack or ne other current attack. I mean seriously i rate SRT higher and all but if Lara were playing right now, i see no reason why he wouldnt thrive. No Mcgrath to torment him . he would gorge on SL, NZ, RSA etc.

 

[Sanz]

I just dont understand how anyone can come out and say that Tendulkar is easily the better test batsmen of the two. He maybe the better overall batsmen if you consider his ODI record but certainly Lara remains the premier test batsmen for me since Bradman..

And I wonder how can anyone make such a claim when the debate over Lara being the best of his Generation is not settled yet.

 

[Sanz]

No more pathetic than the 14 tests SRT has played vs ZIm/Bang as opposed to 4 for Lara. And not ne more pathetic than the current SL attack or ne other current attack. I mean seriously i rate SRT higher and all but if Lara were playing right now, i see no reason why he wouldnt thrive. No Mcgrath to torment him . he would gorge on SL, NZ, RSA etc.

The point is a. Lara is not playing b. That is not a given even if he were playing.

 

[vcs]

And I wonder how can anyone make such a claim when the debate over Lara being the best of his Generation is not settled yet.

Yeah... I mean, Sobers, Hobbs, Richards..