*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[vcs]

Speaking of great midfield performances.. this is the best I can remember in my lifetime.

YouTube - Zidane ? All in the touch - Brazil (2006)

 

[Cevno]

Speaking of great midfield performances.. this is the best I can remember in my lifetime.

YouTube - Zidane ? All in the touch - Brazil (2006)

Some of his performances in 2002 were better imo.

 

[vcs]

Iniesta against ?

Torres has scored numerous goals against big teams in big games. I'd kinda agree with you there but even in that Euro final besides the goal I wouldn't define his performance as domineering. Xavi I'd also agree to an extent; but frankly both the sides he plays for (Spain/Barca) are so ridiculously talented they rarely don't dominate as a team.

With Gerrard, I am more referring to the fact that he's had to pretty much do it on his own. I don't think any of the aforementioned players could do what Gerrard did in 05/Istanbul.

Err... WC final? Don't come much bigger than that. Also last minute goal against Chelsea taking them to the CL final last year. Was excellent in the final as well despite not scoring.

Anyway, I don't see what sets Gerrard's performances apart from several big-match performances we've seen over the years from Eto'o, Kaka (he was incredible in that same match), Ferdinand/Vidic etc. apart from the fact that Liverpool got themselves into a hole in the first place.

 

[Ikki]

You are bias towards gerrard is clouding your judgement.. If you seriously think gerrard's performance in 05 final is better than keane's in 99 semis... Its not even close. I am pretty positive in saying that hamann's performance was better than gerrard's in that final.

As far as italian dominance considered, italian teams are reaching finals of both european tournaments for a decade till 99, then manu stopped juve. Serie A is miles ahead of all otheer leagues since the mid 80s to 99, its not even funny how good they are.. Every CL final has a italian team till 99. Historically that match against juventus was remebered as the turning point in club football.

Not only do I think it's better...I think it's frankly a joke to even compare. That performance stands out for Keane be cause a) Juve were very strong and b) it's not the kind of performance he's replicated a lot at that level. Come on dude, CL final, against easily the best team in Europe, with the best players, 3-0 down and with a team like Liverpool's to win it? It's just not even close.

Also to make it out as if Keane stopped Italian football dominance because of that one match...it's just silly. As I said, even in the last 10 years only Spanish clubs have won as many CLs as Italy. I agree, Italian football until about 00s was easily better than any other league in the world, but they were still strong at the turn of the millenium and they didn't go to **** until calciopoli.

 

[vcs]

Some of his performances in 2002 were better imo.

You mean Euro 2000? Perhaps, but there was something really special about rolling back the years in this one and demolishing the Brazilian hype.. they had some big stars in attack like Ronaldinho, Kaka, Robinho etc. at the time.

 

[L Trumper]

Some of his performances in 2002 were better imo.

Zidane in 2002 WC? when did that happen?

Zidane's best performance was in euro2000 he was almost as good as platini [circa 84] in that tournament.

 

[Ikki]

Err... WC final? Don't come much bigger than that. Also last minute goal against Chelsea taking them to the CL final last year. Was excellent in the final as well despite not scoring.

Anyway, I don't see what sets Gerrard's performances apart from several big-match performances we've seen over the years from Eto'o, Kaka (he was incredible in that same match), Ferdinand/Vidic etc. apart from the fact that Liverpool got themselves into a hole in the first place.

Excuse me? Iniesta hardly touched the ball in the first half and only started influencing the match in the latter stages. In fact, he was peripheral for most of that match which is pretty hard to do when your side has easily most of the possession. Even in that Chelsea game, he largely did nothing but keep possession until the last minute in what is probably the worst officiated game in living memory. Xavi > Iniesta in big matches IMO. That CL final was all Xavi. His performances in the Euros were also magnificent.

Maybe I should have clarified earlier...I am not saying Gerrard is the only big match player...come on that's ridiculous - even a fanboy like me knows this. But really none of those guys carried a team that was as weak as Liverpool to those kind of successes. That's why I put him on a pedestal. And it's not like he waits till finals to do it. He wins matches on his own so routinely it's preposterous.

 

[Cevno]

Zidane in 2002 WC? when did that happen?

Zidane's best performance was in euro2000 he was almost as good as platini [circa 84] in that tournament.

Yeah meant Euro 2000.Don't know why typed in 2002.

His performances culminating in the final were superb in the 1998 World Cup culminating in the final where he ran the show.
What a Final that would have been had Fat Ronaldo been fit.

 

[Ikki]

Zidane in 2002 WC? when did that happen?

Zidane's best performance was in euro2000 he was almost as good as platini [circa 84] in that tournament.

Could be referring to his performances for Real Madrid. Like, remember this: YouTube - Zidane-Goal in Eurocup final Real Madrid-Bayer Leverkusen

 

[vcs]

I still don't quite see it that way.. because I think an essential part of a truly great midfield performance is lifting the rest of your team, not necessarily bailing it out of trouble (which might work a couple of times but is not repeatable) and I don't see Gerrard doing that often enough. But I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

 

[L Trumper]

Could be referring to his performances for Real Madrid. Like, remember this: YouTube - Zidane-Goal in Eurocup final Real Madrid-Bayer Leverkusen

Being a Real Madrid fan of course I'll remember it. The high point of galacticos along with Ron's hatrick in oldtrafford and this Pièce de résistance that almost went in YouTube - Ronaldo And Zidane..

edit: picture quality is not that good.

 

[Ikki]

I still don't quite see it that way.. because I think an essential part of a truly great midfield performance is lifting the rest of your team, not necessarily bailing it out of trouble (which might work a couple of times but is not repeatable) and I don't see Gerrard doing that often enough. But I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.

Come on bro...Gerrard has practically won everything for Liverpool bar the league (runner up twice). It's not like he has a good match here and there, and that's it for the season. We'll agree to disagree. I am a Liverpool fan and for the last 10 years have seen him raise the team to a level we probably didn't belong to as our squad has been largely inferior to teams like Barca, United, Chelsea, etc. It's hard for any of us (Liverpool fans) not to see him in such a light. A great player pulls off these kinds of performances here and there but I have never in my life having watched football seen a player so routinely make the difference between a loss and a draw and a draw and a win.

 

[vcs]

Fair enough. Great player, I'm not debating that. FTR, I'd put him at about the level of Kaka (Kaka better at his peak but Gerrard for longevity) but I wouldn't call him a great CM.

 

[L Trumper]

As a liverpool fan you are criminally underrating your players, to project gerrard in very high regard. Pool midfield is almost as good as other teams.. Once alonso is out, you can see how much pool fell off. Before that their midfield is not piss poor.

 

[cpr]

Agree to disagree. He can do what Vieira and Keane did + more. That's my argument. They may be better disciplined positionally and better defensively, but not enough to make the difference for just how much better Gerrard is going forward. Ironically, if I were building an XI I wouldn't have Vieira AND Keane in the team both as I am essentially wasting a position.

So they are better disciplined positionally and better defensively... therefore Gerrard can't do what they did, as that was their job..... Gerrard could offer cover in that role, and be better than most, but not them.

I wouldn't have Vieira and Keane in a Prem XI, pretty sure my post mentioned a Scholes and Vieira pairing....

Come on bro...Gerrard has practically won everything for Liverpool bar the league (runner up twice). It's not like he has a good match here and there, and that's it for the season. .... A great player pulls off these kinds of performances here and there but I have never in my life having watched football seen a player so routinely make the difference between a loss and a draw and a draw and a win.

Hang on, could sub Gerrard for Keane in that argument, but chuck in the league titles.....


No ones saying Gerrards a bad player (except when he puts on a white shirt), but your getting very over defensive of him here, attacking pretty much everyone else's opinion, and nicely glossing over just how dominant Keane was around '99... The point about him not actually playing in the final actually argues against yourself really, because without him and Scholes we were ****ing pants.

 

[Ikki]

So they are better disciplined positionally and better defensively... therefore Gerrard can't do what they did, as that was their job..... Gerrard could offer cover in that role, and be better than most, but not them.

I wouldn't have Vieira and Keane in a Prem XI, pretty sure my post mentioned a Scholes and Vieira pairing....

I think those two were more holding midfielders and Gerrard is simply much more than that. Gerrard can do what they did but I think they are overall better at those facets. But as overall CMs go, no those two can't make up the difference in terms of going forward. If I rated Keane and Vieira 9 in terms of discipline/defence I'd rate Gerrard as 7, but in terms of attack I'd rate Gerrard 9 and them somewhere like 5.

Scholes-Vieira is interesting...personally I think Lampard is getting shafted as he should be in this discussion too.

Gerrard himself rated Keane above Vieira and Makalele above them both as his toughest opponents.

Hang on, could sub Gerrard for Keane in that argument, but chuck in the league titles.....

No ones saying Gerrards a bad player (except when he puts on a white shirt), but your getting very over defensive of him here, attacking pretty much everyone else's opinion, and nicely glossing over just how dominant Keane was around '99... The point about him not actually playing in the final actually argues against yourself really, because without him and Scholes we were ****ing pants.

I'm attacking people's opinions? I don't think I am, I actually like the discussion even though we're kinda hijacking the thread. Keane was probably at his peak around that time...but don't try to argue that he was more important for United in winning that title than Gerrard was for Liverpool. Don't argue that his performance against Juventus was better than Gerrard's in Istanbul. Those arguments for me are nothing but revisionism.

I mean as good as Keane was, he has many seasons where he's missed a quarter of the season for United and they're still winning trophies.

----

Something separate, I love this interview with Henry celebrating Gerrard's 10 years at Anfield:

In an exclusive interview with Liverpoolfc.tv to celebrate Steven Gerrard week, Thierry Henry reveals all about their close friendship and why his dream of playing alongside the Reds skipper could never come true.


Thierry Henry had been in England less than a month when he paid his first visit to Anfield in August 1999.

A stunning goal from Robbie Fowler helped Liverpool to a 2-0 win on the day, but it was the performance of another Scouser that caught the eye of Arsenal's new striker. One born in Huyton, not Toxteth.

As Dermot Gallagher blew the final whistle and both sides sloped down the tunnel, Henry tapped teammate Partick Vieira on the shoulder and asked, "Who was that kid in midfield?"

"Steven Gerrard," replied his countryman. "He's going to be a brilliant player."

Over the next few years Henry and Gerrard would learn a lot more about one another as each set about writing his name in Premier League history.

It wasn't long before a mutual respect prompted an exchange of phone numbers, and from there a friendship blossomed.

Before Henry left Arsenal for the Nou Camp, there were even rumours that Gerrard tried to woo him to Merseyside.

Here, in an exclusive interview with Liverpoolfc.tv, the French ace reveals all about that conversation and assesses how history will judge his mate...

You played against Steven so many times. Is there an occasion that stands out?

There are so many. Whenever you play Liverpool you know you have to get him out of the game. If not, it's all over for you. He's a midfielder and if you look at all the important goals he's scored - well I can't even think of a striker in the world who has scored as many important goals, never mind a midfielder. How many times has he done it in the dying seconds of a game? I am trying to think of a striker now who does it - there aren't any. Think about it.

Tell us about your friendship. How close did you become?

Yes, really close. I played against Liverpool and Stevie G so many times, and when you appreciate a player so much and see them at every game, you talk. I always told him how much I admired him and he said the same to me. We exchanged numbers and kept in touch from there.

And do you still speak these days now you're at Barcelona?

We haven't spoken for a little while. I think the last time was at the beginning of the season. I'll text him and he'll reply very quickly.

Is it right the pair of you talked about you coming to Liverpool when you were leaving Arsenal?

Well, it was mentioned but it would have been difficult for me to go to another Premier League club after Arsenal. We talked about it but nothing was in it, really. It was just us talking about our wishes.

Maybe you could come back to the Premier League one day…

No, I really don't think so. In life you can never say never, right; but right now I really don't think so.

How much would you have liked to have played with him?

Oh, so much, so much. That's normal - I would have liked to have played with some others too, but he is an inspiration. He reminds me of Patrick Vieira in that he doesn't talk too much. He just does what he does. He inspires Liverpool without talking. I find it a disgrace that he didn't win European Football of the Year in 2005 after Istanbul. For me, he is one of the best ever.

How do they compare - Steven and Patrick?

They are different types of player. Patrick was a holding midfielder who also had the ability to go and score goals. Stevie G is someone who plays with the ball. He goes to put his name on the scoresheet every game. It is difficult to compare the two: it's like comparing Paul Scholes and Roy Keane. They are both great players but they don't do the same thing on the pitch.

Where does Steven rank in world football in your opinion?

For me, and I have always said this, he will be regarded as one of the greatest midfielders ever when he finishes his career. No doubt. Okay, he doesn't do the showboating thing. That doesn't matter. The guy is always putting his foot in, always scoring and doing what he has to do to make his team win. That is what football is all about. He is the guy who makes Liverpool spark.

What, for you, is his biggest attribute on the pitch?

Ah, where do you begin? Maybe I would say that when he needs to put his foot in, he does it. Look at Istanbul. He needed to go play at right-back and so he did it. And he did it well. He will put his head on the line and go to places other players won't. I don't know of a single word that describes Stevie G. Even if he is not playing at his best, you know you can count on him.

You don't get many players who play for their hometown club for 10 years, do you?

Well, it happens more in England than in other countries. There is a thing in England where people want to play for their hometown team and be the local hero - be like the people they used to look up to. But it is amazing what Stevie has done and is doing. It's not like he has relaxed for all this time. He has been everywhere for 10 years: putting his foot in, scoring goals, passing and being committed to his club. No one can ever doubt his commitment to Liverpool. He, for me, is Liverpool.

-------

What Vieira himself said in 04, that he thought Gerrard was better than himself:

http://www.arsenal-mania.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6273

PATRICK VIEIRA kept a straight face and didn't flinch as he answered the question. "Alex Ferguson's probably right," he said. "Steven Gerrard is a better player than me."

There was no trace of humour or irony in Vieira's answer or in his expression, just a simple acknowledgement that Gerrard has now emerged as the world's most complete midfield player.

It is a view shared by Ferguson. The Manchester United boss is not known for heaping praise on players outside the confines of Old Trafford, but both he and Vieira know a unique talent when it comes along.

"Gerrard has become the most influential player in England bar none," said Fergie. "He's more influential than Vieira. Absolutely more than Vieira."

For many players, such a dismissal of their influence would have prompted a retaliatory strike in an effort to reassert their standing in the game.

But on the eve of England's opening Euro 2004 clash with France, Arsenal skipper Vieira was in forgiving and generous mood.

"I couldn't vote for Thierry Henry as the Player of the Year because you can't vote for your own team-mates," said Vieira.

"So I voted for Gerrard. In my opinion he's in the top three midfielders in the world, maybe the best right now.

"I heard what Alex Ferguson said about him being better than me. He's probably right. Gerrard is England's best player and he single-handedly got Liverpool into the Champions League.

"He is the complete player. He can score, he has a great final ball, he can tackle and he drives his team forward. He is a winner on the pitch, which is why I really admire him.

"If Gerrard can stay 100 per cent fit and play to his best, I think England will have a great chance to go far in the tournament."

Also said Gerrard is the best in 08: http://www.goal.com/en/news/8/main/2008/10/14/911437/vieira-gerrard-is-best-midfielder

 

[cpr]

Come on, how many players are going to come out and go 'Gerrard, **** off, I'm the best'... Well apart from a Mr C Ronaldo of course.

Lampard, yeah getting a bit shafted here, compliment to Gerrard that he's keeping him out of the discussion though.

Keane was the rock utd were built on in the 90's/early 2000's. Guessing were not gonna agree so I'm walking away before we really get at each others throats about it


Bodes well for a nice rivalry this season though


So long as City crash n burn, who cares



Also, how the living hell are city going to trim that squad to 25 and meet the homegrown quotent?

 

[Furball]

If you're seriously suggesting a performance against West Ham in a poxy domestic cup is the equal, never mind superior to Keane dragging his side to victory against the best side in Europe at the time, then you're ****ing deluded.

And stop eulogising Gerrard's performance in Istanbul - it was so dominant that Liverpool didn't get a kick first half - it's the most one sided half of football I've ever seen in a major final. 3-0 going on 6-0. Liverpool had a 10 minute spell where everything came off for them and somehow got themselves back to 3-3, then were out of the game completely again. 10 flukey minutes is nothing compared to what Keane did in Turin.

 

[Ikki]

If you're seriously suggesting a performance against West Ham in a poxy domestic cup is the equal, never mind superior to Keane dragging his side to victory against the best side in Europe at the time, then you're ****ing deluded.

Come on, Gerrard already did that (perform against the best team in Europe) in a European cup final, in the most dire circumstances imaginable. Once again, Keane can't touch Gerrard there.

And stop eulogising Gerrard's performance in Istanbul - it was so dominant that Liverpool didn't get a kick first half - it's the most one sided half of football I've ever seen in a major final. 3-0 going on 6-0. Liverpool had a 10 minute spell where everything came off for them and somehow got themselves back to 3-3, then were out of the game completely again. 10 flukey minutes is nothing compared to what Keane did in Turin.

Liverpool were outclassed throughout the match. They always were gonna be when you look at that squad - as opposed to that United squad in comparison to their opponents. It was a miracle just getting to that final for us. The fact that we won it goes largely to Gerrard. In terms off importance, difficulty and sheer "that ain't never gonna happen again"...It's not even an argument. People are going to remember Istanbul in decades time whilst only United/Keane fans will remember that Juventus match. It was a great performance by Keane, don't get me wrong...but there is some serious exaggeration going on here. Yorke was also very good in that match too, it must be said.

Come on, how many players are going to come out and go 'Gerrard, **** off, I'm the best'... Well apart from a Mr C Ronaldo of course.

Well, it shows he is a classy guy but I think the rest of his comments were pretty objective. Simply put, back in 04 people considered Gerrard their equal and one of the best midfielders in the world...and he really has become twice the player since then.

As an aside, Gerrard himself has said he modeled his earlier style on Keane and later on Vieira after he "was on another level" in that 01 FA cup final.

So long as City crash n burn, who cares

As much as it pains me to say...they're going to win it eventually and they are going to be a power. Getting in the top 4 these days is also riddled with problems for us. I think United have been set up much better even though IMO we have the better first XI (as it stands).
---------

In other news, Liverpool just got Luke Young. This one has Hodgson's fingerprints all over it.

 

[Nate]

Ikki and friends, please get your garbage spamming out of this thread and in CC where it belongs.

In other news, Liverpool just got Luke Young. This one has Hodgson's fingerprints all over it.

You say it like it's a disaster. He's not the worst buy for us right now, and we didn't pay much for him. You're sounding more and more like a Liverpool follower rather than a Liverpool supporter.

So, so pleased with how Hodgson and co are operating in the off-season. Loving it.