Ricky Ponting should be sacked

[Sir Alex]

Still don't think that Ponting should be sacked.

I can see legitimate purpose for him to be put down the order, to number five, but I wouldn't do that now. I think that this batting order will best serve us for the tour of India - I think that Watson's best chance of making runs in India is opening when he is in by the time that the spinners come on, and I think Ponting is of a similar nature.

Yes, I agree with this. It would be too much of an overreaction to chuck Ponting out. He is going through a bad patch and he is on decline, but averages of 42 aren't that bad to be honest. And his experience and maturity is vital for a relatively young and inexperienced side that Australia are now, regardless of what fanboys like Byron Coverdale (cricinfo staff writer) etc would like to believe (ie, Australian team of now is a "finished product").

 

[Sir Alex]

Have a feeling Ponting will finally go some way to fixing the "hole" in his record in India. No real basis for it, but there you go.

Even if he score consecutive 100s in the coming 2 test matches, I highly doubt how they could "erase" his previous failures, or his bunnyship to Harbhajan Singh. However that will be redemption of some proportions though.

 

[Faisal1985]

It's important to separate the facts from the fiction with Michael Clarke. A lot of the myth comes from his public image, his hairstyle, gf, tattoos.

The facts are however:

1. He's an excellent Test batsmen (irrelevant to this discussion)
2. He's a poor limited overs batsman these days (irrelevant to this discussion and might be getting better, fingers crossed)
3. In the face of perhaps the most difficult public situation ANY Australian cricketer has had to face he scored a beautiful, matchwinning century. Now this is relevant to the discussion. If that does not prove mental toughness I don't know what does.

Why do you keep on missing the point of the post dude? Its simple let me spell it out for you....Clarke imo will have a hard time taking the Ashes pressure...where as Punter has been there and done that....Its not about hate or love for Clarke its about leadership and confidence....that ton Clarke scored was a wonderful individual effort (he will have to carry a team with him as the captain) and even if i believe you that the pressure was immense the NZ side is comparatively weaker then this English side...its one thing to be against Punter but you can't take away from him that his presence in the side as a captain is a huge boost and Clarke may not be the right choice just now for the upcoming Ashes....i am talking from the Australian point of view.....

 

[pasag]

Why do you keep on missing the point of the post dude? Its simple let me spell it out for you....Clarke imo will have a hard time taking the Ashes pressure...where as Punter has been there and done that....Its not about hate or love for Clarke its about leadership and confidence....that ton Clarke scored was a wonderful individual effort (he will have to carry a team with him as the captain) and even if i believe you that the pressure was immense the NZ side is comparatively weaker then this English side...its one thing to be against Punter but you can't take away from him that his presence in the side as a captain is a huge boost and Clarke may not be the right choice just now for the upcoming Ashes....i am talking from the Australian point of view.....

The only one missing the point is you. You've given us some nonsense about Clarke being relatively mentally soft and we've pointed to EVIDENCE to the contrary.

That said I don't think he's the best candidate for the captaincy as I'm not sure about his strategic credentials and would be more comfortable with Katich as captain as he's the most qualified guy in the room. Also I wouldn't drop Punter either. This thread was started in a different context and if you didn't drop him for that, I certainly wouldn't drop him for losing 1 Test in the past eight (don't believe in dropping captains because of team results either way).

And those NZ bowlers in NZ vs England bowlers in Australia, not much of a difference. Not that that is really relevant. Wait, what do their batsmen average again?

 

[Spark]

It's important to separate the facts from the fiction with Michael Clarke. A lot of the myth comes from his public image, his hairstyle, gf, tattoos.

The facts are however:

1. He's an excellent Test batsmen (irrelevant to this discussion)
2. He's a poor limited overs batsman these days (irrelevant to this discussion and might be getting better, fingers crossed)
3. In the face of perhaps the most difficult public situation ANY Australian cricketer has had to face he scored a beautiful, matchwinning century. Now this is relevant to the discussion. If that does not prove mental toughness I don't know what does.

Also add it's not like he came in at 3/300. No. He came in about 3/120, but then Katich got out to make it 4/160 and an (at the time) horrifically out of form North coming in. If you don't see why this could be a problem, look at the second test - almost identical situation, except it was Clarke who got out at 4/160, not Katich. Result? All out for just over 200 instead over 400-and-something declared. So there was match situation as well as personal pressure.

@pasag, as BoyBrumby said, I think that ship has sailed.

 

[Faisal1985]

The only one missing the point is you. You've given us some nonsense about Clarke being relatively mentally soft and we've pointed to EVIDENCE to the contrary.

That said I don't think he's the best candidate for the captaincy as I'm not sure about his strategic credentials and would be more comfortable with Katich as captain as he's the most qualified guy in the room. Also I wouldn't drop Punter either. This thread was started in a different context and if you didn't drop him for that, I certainly wouldn't drop him for losing 1 Test in the past eight (don't believe in dropping captains because of team results either way).

And those NZ bowlers in NZ vs England bowlers in Australia, not much of a difference. Not that that is really relevant. Wait, what do their batsmen average again?

That "evidence" is not quite convincing.....and does not prove anything more then the fact that Clarke is a good test bat and he has played a good knock under pressure..he has done it before as well...

Anyways, seems quite needless expressing one's opinion about a different team.....i was interested in how Australia will deal with the upcoming Ashes so i chipped in...

 

[pasag]

That "evidence" is not quite convincing.....and does not prove anything more then the fact that Clarke is a good test bat and he has played a good knock under pressure..he has done it before as well...

Anyways, seems quite needless expressing one's opinion about a different team.....i was interested in how Australia will deal with the upcoming Ashes so i chipped in...

The evidence seems pretty convincing to me. Either way you're more than entitled to discuss Australian players, we don't have a monopoly on Australian discussion.

 

[pasag]

@pasag, as BoyBrumby said, I think that ship has sailed.

Yeah, but that never stopped us from discussing things before

 

[Spark]

Yeah, but that never stopped us from discussing things before

Touché.

 

[honestbharani]

Have a feeling Ponting will finally go some way to fixing the "hole" in his record in India. No real basis for it, but there you go.

Seeing our current bowling line up is enough "reason" to bet on that, I am sure..


Seriously, if Ponting can't fix his record against THIS Indian bowling side, he should consider if he is still amongst the best batsmen for Australia...

 

[Prince EWS]

Seeing our current bowling line up is enough "reason" to bet on that, I am sure..


Seriously, if Ponting can't fix his record against THIS Indian bowling side, he should consider if he is still amongst the best batsmen for Australia...

Zaheer, Sreesanth and one of the (at least) three spinners available who are better than Ojha and not being picked would strengthen that though. Depends who plays really.

 

[honestbharani]

The issues that need to be considered reg. Ponting are:


1. Is he the best captaincy material in your best XI ?
2. Is he part of your best XI?
3. Is he better off playing without the pressue of captaincy to get back something of his awesome touch of the old?
4. Is it better if he simply moved down the order and skippered from 5 or so?



For me, I think Ponting still deserves his place in the side as a batsman. And I think it is the wrong time to be changing captains anyway. What B_W said about changing captains at the end of a season or at least significant series makes sense. I would let him captain till the WC and then take a call on his future after that. If I were an Aussie selector, I would have a word wtih him and go "look mate, we trust you and your skill and your experience. So there ya go, you are skipper till the WC. All the best."


But one thing I would do is look at him moving down the order, esp. if he continues to flounder from 3 against India. That line up of Hughes, Katich, Watson, Clarke, Ponting, Hussey looks sooo much better, at least on paper and probably current form and balance. That said, Ponting could well fill his boots against INdia (esp if they win toss and bat first against this attack) and may end up batting 3 again in the Ashes and who knows, it might just end up being a blessing in disguise for England.

 

[Prince EWS]

The issues that need to be considered reg. Ponting are:


1. Is he the best captaincy material in your best XI ?
2. Is he part of your best XI?
3. Is he better off playing without the pressue of captaincy to get back something of his awesome touch of the old?
4. Is it better if he simply moved down the order and skippered from 5 or so?



For me, I think Ponting still deserves his place in the side as a batsman. And I think it is the wrong time to be changing captains anyway. What B_W said about changing captains at the end of a season or at least significant series makes sense. I would let him captain till the WC and then take a call on his future after that. If I were an Aussie selector, I would have a word wtih him and go "look mate, we trust you and your skill and your experience. So there ya go, you are skipper till the WC. All the best."


But one thing I would do is look at him moving down the order, esp. if he continues to flounder from 3 against India. That line up of Hughes, Katich, Watson, Clarke, Ponting, Hussey looks sooo much better, at least on paper and probably current form and balance. That said, Ponting could well fill his boots against INdia (esp if they win toss and bat first against this attack) and may end up batting 3 again in the Ashes and who knows, it might just end up being a blessing in disguise for England.

1. No, but he he's never really been. Nothing's changed. If anything I think his captaincy has actually improved a lot lately, but Katich is still the better captain.
2. Definitely.
3. I don't think so, no. I think his batting would suffer without the captaincy actually.
4. Perhaps, but not in India.

 

[Top_Cat]

AWTPEWS, number 3 captains are a bit of a specialist spot in and of themselves. Needs a specialist combination of a bloke wanting to be not only the side's leader but the best batter. take one away and the other would naturally suffer. Don't think Ponting really sees himself in any other role than being at the top of the order and barking orders, would probably retire if the selectors tried cajole him into moving.

 

[honestbharani]

AWTPEWS, number 3 captains are a bit of a specialist spot in and of themselves. Needs a specialist combination of a bloke wanting to be not only the side's leader but the best batter. take one away and the other would naturally suffer. Don't think Ponting really sees himself in any other role than being at the top of the order and barking orders, would probably retire if the selectors tried cajole him into moving.

But you gotta put the team up there right? It can't always be about what you want ideally... I mean, hearing stories about Viv Richards, I think he was even more of a "bat top order and bark orders" type than Ponting and he moved down when he felt he was losing his touch a bit and there was another who was good enough to bat there.... Do you seriously think Ponting should not try something like that?

 

[Top_Cat]

But you gotta put the team up there right? It can't always be about what you want ideally... I mean, hearing stories about Viv Richards, I think he was even more of a "bat top order and bark orders" type than Ponting and he moved down when he felt he was losing his touch a bit and there was another who was good enough to bat there.... Do you seriously think Ponting should not try something like that?

Depends on whether you're more interested in maintaining your record or your standards. Ponting could retire tomorrow and he'd have had one of the best careers in Australian sporting history. Get the impression he's a personality who, rather than prolong his career by compromising, would rather get out before that point. That would probably be his version of putting the team first i.e. if he doesn't feel he's good enough, get out rather than make things easier on himself.

I dunno, I'm not him.

 

[honestbharani]

Depends on whether you're more interested in maintaining your record or your standards. Ponting could retire tomorrow and he'd have had one of the best careers in Australian sporting history. Get the impression he's a personality who, rather than prolong his career by compromising, would rather get out before that point. That would probably be his version of putting the team first i.e. if he doesn't feel he's good enough, get out rather than make things easier on himself.

I dunno, I'm not him.

lol.. can't argue that point.


But I feel it is better if he can move down to 5... For the team as a whole..

 

[Matt79]

Think it needs to be put to Ponting in terms of giving guys like Hughes and Watson their best shot by letting them try the position that suits them best, rather than "you're failing at three, try things down at five where its a bit easier". If he was convinced that it was the only way for a Hughes or similar to get a game, he might be prepared to do it, but he's too much of a warrior to ever be willing to acknowledge he needs to be moved away from a spot that's troubling him.

 

[honestbharani]

Think it needs to be put to Ponting in terms of giving guys like Hughes and Watson their best shot by letting them try the position that suits them best, rather than "you're failing at three, try things down at five where its a bit easier". If he was convinced that it was the only way for a Hughes or similar to get a game, he might be prepared to do it, but he's too much of a warrior to ever be willing to acknowledge he needs to be moved away from a spot that's troubling him.

Problem is he has to realize that what's troubling him is troubling the team too... I don't belive this whole "he is a warrior" stuff.. You just can't keep doing the same things in international cricket and think it will always work. People around you improve and learn and when you reach a stage or age from where you can't to do that, you gotta find other ways of staying productive as a player. And this is what Ponting needs to do. If he can't do that or adjust his attitude that way, I don't see him doing well for any real period of time at all, either as player or as captain.

 

[Top_Cat]

Problem is he has to realize that what's troubling him is troubling the team too... I don't belive this whole "he is a warrior" stuff.. You just can't keep doing the same things in international cricket and think it will always work. People around you improve and learn and when you reach a stage or age from where you can't to do that, you gotta find other ways of staying productive as a player. And this is what Ponting needs to do. If he can't do that or adjust his attitude that way, I don't see him doing well for any real period of time at all, either as player or as captain.

Like I said, depends on how much he wants to stay in the team. It's hardly new for a player to quit rather than compromise.

And, tbh, the Viv example is an interesting one. He moved down the order and prolonged his career to enjoy a few years of relative mediocrity as a batter. The reasons might have been altruistic (shepherd the WI through several retirements, etc.) or they might have been selfish but I do wonder if he kept any good players out. One example, Carlisle Best; was gun but dropped after only 8 Tests, rumours abounded he clashed with Viv. Viv only retired a year or so later but Best was never picked again.

Maybe it would have been better had Viv just stepped aside? I dunno, all hypotheticals.