The Best of The Rest - NZ, WI, Pak, Bang in tests

[Hurricane]

Listing players as having potential to justify the current batting lineup being better than those gone by is a bit of a fallacy because at the time Flynn, How, Elliott, Ingram, Papps, Franklin etc etc were all seen as having the same and I'm yet to be convinced that the replacements are actually any better. The only exception is Williamson because he really does have more potential than the others ever had and that's obvious.

I don't think I rate the current batting lineup better than:

McIntosh
Guptill
Flynn
Taylor
Ryder
Oram
McCullum
Vettori

... and UIMM that actually did happen.

Part of Athlai's argument centres around Ryder coming into the picture after the England in England series so he is counting him as part of the improvement. And they were weaker before he arrived.

But you are right you can't make an argument based on potential. And also regarding Mcintosh...he is averaging 29.69 (including Bangers) - but Flynn averaged 28.70 yet he was dropped. And I don't see anyone defending him or protesting this decision. So why are we holding up Mac as being a success when we dropped Flynn for having a similar average. Mac is not test standard at this stage. He is in the team for potential too.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Not really much to argue with here. In the Australia series I was expecting runs out of Taylor, Vettori, and McCullum. The rest of the batsman are not test match quality at this stage of their careers.

When we last played WI they had some sub standard players as well which is why it made for a close series. Xavier Marshall etc...

The fact that WI lost that first test against Aussie so convincingly does give me some belief that it would still be a close game against New Zealand. It would be very helpful to NZs cause to have Ryder in the line up for that series.

I wouldn't mind having 4 game test series against WI and Pak when we play them. The top teams have 4 or 5 games against each other. Don't see why the bottom teams can't have a longer go against each other. The Pak / NZ series was killer.

To be fair WI were totally under prepard for that first test against Australia, the lads had been on strike for most of the year and barely had any practice matches either, once they settled in though we saw a good response in the 2nd and 3rd test.

On another note it's ironic that when Prince pretty much echoes what i've been saying no-one has any abuse for him!! .. and they call me "biased"? .

 

[Prince EWS]

Part of Athlai's argument centres around Ryder coming into the picture after the England in England series so he is counting him as part of the improvement. And they were weaker before he arrived.

But you are right you can't make an argument based on potential. And also regarding Mcintosh...he is averaging 29.69 (including Bangers) - but Flynn averaged 28.70 yet he was dropped. And I don't see anyone defending him or protesting this decision. So why are we holding up Mac as being a success when we dropped Flynn for having a similar average. Mac is not test standard at this stage. He is in the team for potential too.

Key difference there is the fact that McIntosh is opening the batting. There's less competition and less expectation from New Zealand's openers.

 

[Athlai]

Key difference there is the fact that McIntosh is opening the batting. There's less competition and less expectation from New Zealand's openers.

Yeah thats pretty much the crux of the matter, we just can't get another good Test opener.

 

[Hurricane]

I

The middle order is strong, Taylor, Ryder and Vettori are all 50 plus average batsmen right now, Williamson is an unknown quantity at the international level but I'm quitely confindent he'll make the step up right away.

.

I will be upset if he is a bust. I hope you are right. Have you seen much of him live?

 

[Athlai]

To be fair WI were totally under prepard for that first test against Australia, the lads had been on strike for most of the year and barely had any practice matches either, once they settled in though we saw a good response in the 2nd and 3rd test.

On another note it's ironic that when Prince pretty much echoes what i've been saying no-one has any abuse for him!! .. and they call me "biased"? .

Probably the smileys. And that he doesn't herald players like Benn but does accept the well acknowledged losses of Taylor and Edwards as hugely defining in this.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I do believe Pakistan have done enough to be rated ahead of the WI at the moment. I think that even though WI have a heap of off field dramas - but they are nothing to what Pakistan have. And since that 1-0 England result, it is clear to me that the drawn series against NZ and Aus better results than what the West Indies have achieved. I think that even though NZ have a weaker side at the moment, beating them at home is still not as easy as you would think. Pakistan are mercurial - if they play strong enough for even 70 percent of the game, they will come close to winning it.

I think this is where we differ because WI have also had huge problems too like not having a proper coach in charge for ages after Dyson was sacked, the loss of several key players to injury and our top players being at loggerheads with the WICB it's all counter productive at the end of the day, as for the respective results of both Pak and WI, i just happen to think actually winning a series (like we did against England last year) is much more of an achievement than drawing a few against NZ and Aus, but as i said we're all entitled to our opinions, even if some people don't seem to like that philosophy.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Probably the smileys. And that he doesn't herald players like Benn but does accept the well acknowledged losses of Taylor and Edwards as hugely defining in this.

The smilies are just an expression Athlai!!, it's nothing serious, and i've never put Benn on a higher level than what he is, he's no Murali, he's no Swann, he's certainly no Warne, but he's in fine form right now which some people find hard to accept, somehow they still think he's the same guy who couldn't buy a wicket against SL and NZ two years ago and that's just not the case.

 

[Flem274*]

Nah WW, Prince is saying different things to you. Namely, WI aren't the best of the rest.

Has some manners as well.

McIntosh is a better batsman than Flynn. It's close, but McIntoshs big FC innings clinch it.

Flynn was never anything more than a young bloke plucked out of nowhere on the back of one good season ahead of (at the time) far better qualified candidates.

Crowe working with Flynn is good, but Crowe worked with How as well. He still failed.

McIntosh is nothing more than an inconsistent all or nothing FC batsman and this is translating to tests. Unlike Flynn, he is an opener, so the standard is lower for him. We always have middle order batsmen, but openers (unless they're Michael Papps or Peter Ingram) get more slack. I disagreed with his intial selection but while he has his weaknesses, he also has some strengths. His cover drive is fantastic.

Jamie How is probably the last bloke who had no real horror flaws and scored a few runs, but really he is one of the best of a very sorry lot.

The problem won't be sorted by any of the current 25 and above players. We might get one opener out of them but not two. Really just cross your fingers and hope one or two of Watling, Guptill, Brodie and Raval live up to the hype.

Oh, and there's McCullum, but we don't know whether he's opening or at three yet.

So we're a bit like the West Indies really. We're a wait and see project. It may well be the Jeet Ravals, Adam Milnes et al make the grade.

 

[Howsie]

I will be upset if he is a bust. I hope you are right. Have you seen much of him live?

Yeah quite abit actually. Watched him score his first one day 100 a couple of seasons ago and then at the end of this season I went up to Cobham Oval when he was 0* overnight against Auckland and he ended up making 190 odd that innings.

 

[Athlai]

The smilies are just an expression Athlai!!, it's nothing serious, and i've never put Benn on a higher level than what he is, he's no Murali, he's no Swann, he's certainly no Warne, but he's in fine form right now which some people find hard to accept, somehow they still think he's the same guy who couldn't buy a wicket against SL and NZ two years ago and that's just not the case.

They're irritating though. So very irritating. I reckon Benn is a decent Test spinner, but these other countries all have good spinning options that have more to offer and have offered more in recent times. With the exception of perhaps Vettori who seems to have fallen away with the ball slightly while dominating with the bat.

West Indian conditions have been spin friendly recently which also kinda degrades what he has done to the international audience IMO. Needs to do more.

 

[Hurricane]

The smilies are just an expression Athlai!!, it's nothing serious, and i've never put Benn on a higher level than what he is, he's no Murali, he's no Swann, he's certainly no Warne, but he's in fine form right now which some people find hard to accept, somehow they still think he's the same guy who couldn't buy a wicket against SL and NZ two years ago and that's just not the case.

What time period do you want us to judge benn on
a) the last 12 months
b) the last 18 months
c) the last 24 months
d) Only his last series

Pick an option..,(not trying to wind you up...)

 

[Flem274*]

If Kane Williamson does an Ishant Sharma I'll be gutted. fantastic to watch, watertight, smart, and scores lots and lots of runs.

Bet that's what they said about Sinclair in the 90s though.

 

[Athlai]

If you ****ing jinx him Phlegm I'll apply for the Mod position and have you outta here faster than Dingdong would.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Nah WW, Prince is saying different things to you. Namely, WI aren't the best of the rest.

Oh really?

The West Indies lineup at full strength would IMO be the best of the lot if they played every game - not by a lot - but by enough.

The evidence looks compelling to me!! .

 

[Athlai]

West Indies lineup at fullstrength is a myth IMO, no proof it has ever existed in the wild.

 

[Prince EWS]

Oh really?



The evidence looks compelling to me!! .

Yeah, but they aren't full strength very often. It's not just circumstance; you have to consider the fact that Edwards and Taylor are very injury-prone and that the backup we've seen is disgracefully bad. Rampaul's more relevant to the discussion than Edwards because he's going to play a lot more, which is why I voted for Pakistan.

 

[Hurricane]

Yeah quite abit actually. Watched him score his first one day 100 a couple of seasons ago and then at the end of this season I went up to Cobham Oval when he was 0* overnight against Auckland and he ended up making 190 odd that innings.

Can you make a post about his technique and his strengths and weaknesses. His coach ups his back foot play is this correct?

 

[WindieWeathers]

They're irritating though. So very irritating. I reckon Benn is a decent Test spinner, but these other countries all have good spinning options that have more to offer and have offered more in recent times. With the exception of perhaps Vettori who seems to have fallen away with the ball slightly while dominating with the bat.

West Indian conditions have been spin friendly recently which also kinda degrades what he has done to the international audience IMO. Needs to do more.

To be fair he also performed well in Australia where he got his first 5fer so it's not just about the Caribbean pitches, i get what you mean though there are other good spinners around but people just seem to go out of there way to put big Benn down and i can't understand why.

We've got some new talented spinners coming through though so the argument about Benn might not last too long, Shillingford done well on debut and Guyana's young leggy Devendra Bishoo is really impressing people right now.

 

[Prince EWS]

To be fair he also performed well in Australia where he got his first 5fer so it's not just about the Caribbean pitches, i get what you mean though there are other good spinners around but people just seem to go out of there way to put big Benn down and i can't understand why.

We've got some new talented spinners coming through though so the argument about Benn might not last too long, Shillingford done well on debut and Guyana's young leggy Devendra Bishoo is really impressing people right now.

I saw Bishoo bowl in a T20 game yesterday... now watching someone bowl four overs in a T20 game is really a shocking way to rate their Test prospects but I didn't think much of him - bowls toppies. I like Shillingford a lot though.