*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Goughy]

There's a thing called BMI. (Body Mass Index). All sportsmen should main tain it somewhere between 20 - 24 to be fit.

Wow, that is pretty much on the low side. 20 BMI for someone my height is 68 kg. That is 150 lbs. Im not of typical build but not freak show wide or stacked but I will use myself as an example. Ive probably not weighed 150 lbs since I was 14. A BMI of 24 is 180 lbs. That is still 15-40 (7-18 kg) lower than I would be in top shape.

You say all sports but American football and rugby players are outside that and even in cricket a well proportioned, uber athelete like Brett Lee falls above 24 BMI.

EDIT- Just checked the BMI for Stuart Broad. It is 21.7 which is right in the middle of what you say. If Broads body shape is ever deemed to be average or ideal by any target then I would suggest that it is set too low.

 

[Top_Cat]

Indeed. Your average power athlete spec ops bloke would be around 6'2", 100Kg (most of it muscle), be able to bench their body weight, do 100 push-ups, do a 10Km run for fun in under an hour and would have a high-protein, low-fat diet. They'd also have a BMI of around 28 which is tending towards 'obese' (apparently) which is just ridiculous. Guys who do any form of strength training, effectively, will never be 'normal' while they're lifting.

Don't find it all that useful, tbh.

 

[Goughy]

Indeed. According to BMI

This man is obese

and this man is overweight

and according to BMI, Roman Sebrle is also overweight

Spoiler

BMI is useless for athletes, especially those that use weights, are well developed or have a fast bowlers arse.

 

[Migara]

Wow, that is pretty much on the low side. 20 BMI for someone my height is 68 kg. That is 150 lbs. Im not of typical build but not freak show wide or stacked but I will use myself as an example. Ive probably not weighed 150 lbs since I was 14. A BMI of 24 is 180 lbs. That is still 15-40 (7-18 kg) lower than I would be in top shape.

You say all sports but American football and rugby players are outside that and even in cricket a well proportioned, uber athelete like Brett Lee falls above 24 BMI.

EDIT- Just checked the BMI for Stuart Broad. It is 21.7 which is right in the middle of what you say. If Broads body shape is ever deemed to be average or ideal by any target then I would suggest that it is set too low.

BMI of more than 26 (26-29) is termed Pre-Obese!

 

[Migara]

Indeed. Your average power athlete spec ops bloke would be around 6'2", 100Kg (most of it muscle), be able to bench their body weight, do 100 push-ups, do a 10Km run for fun in under an hour and would have a high-protein, low-fat diet. They'd also have a BMI of around 28 which is tending towards 'obese' (apparently) which is just ridiculous. Guys who do any form of strength training, effectively, will never be 'normal' while they're lifting.

Don't find it all that useful, tbh.

Good. If the standard is set higher, the weight difference between a taller and a shorter person will be much higher.

BMI 20, Ht - 1.5 -> 45kg, BMI 20, Ht - 2.0 -> 80kg, difference = 35kg
BMI 30, Ht - 1.5 -> 67.5kg, BMI 30, Ht 2.0 -> 120kg, difference = 52.5kg

If you set the standard higher, the difference gets exponential.

 

[Migara]

Indeed. According to BMI

This man is obese

and this man is overweight

and according to BMI, Roman Sebrle is also overweight

Spoiler

BMI is useless for athletes, especially those that use weights, are well developed or have a fast bowlers arse.

Wrestling is a sport where you use anaerobic muscle power. But cricket used aerobic muscle stength (or the majority of respiration in muscles during the sport is such). Weight lifters, putt / discuss throwers would be misfits of the BMI rule (which is for normal people). But for sportsmen as cricketers or long distance sprinters the deviation is much less or non existant. The gymnasts will be in the other end of it.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Fast twitch muscle fibres employ anaerobic respiration, Migara.

 

[Migara]

Fast twitch muscle fibres employ anaerobic respiration, Migara.

Ya, those are small muscles and called white fibers, and that's what you use when you play carrom. I am talking about anerobic and aerobic respiration differences of red fibre muscles during sports.

 

[Migara]

You say all sports but American football and rugby players are outside that and even in cricket a well proportioned, uber athelete like Brett Lee falls above 24 BMI.

My mistake. Should have been called as all sportsmen who use aerobic muscles more than anaerobic ones.

 

[Debris]

What I love about this thread is how weird the arguments have become.

 

[Migara]

Meh, rough in OZ doesn't help that much. Saqlain came to OZ a couple of times with a massive rep and, a couple of frantic hours in Hobart aside (where he wrecked OZ with his doosra, generally pitched to the right of the rough anyway), was largely innocuous even with Wasim in the side. Harbhajan's last tour, he had two lefties to rough up the turf outside off and didn't rip the Aussies apart but was at least useful.

Fact is, it's tough to bowl finger-spin in OZ. Murali's record here doesn't mean that much, tbh. There was that one spell in the World XI match on a lively deck where he was just unbelievable for a couple of hours but just shows you how well you have to bowl and have conditions in your favour to do well here.

The main difference here is to use the rough, you have to give it a serious rip. Other than Murali, Warne and MacGill and perhaps Warnaweera, no body was able to do it in last 30 years. When McGrath and co created perfect rough for Warne, Kumble could not use it because he did not spin it much to take advantage of it. On the other and Wasim never hits the pitch hard, Even if he did, Saqlain gets half the turn what Murali used to get, and hence cannot utilise the rough far outside off. Same story goes for Harbhajan as well. So it is no surprise that they've not used rough much. On other hand Swann spins it a mammoth amount for a finger spinner, and he may be able to take use of it. Anyway, we have to wait and see whether Swann is good enough for that.

If I had a chance to bring back one SL player to play on Aussie tracks, I would bring Jayananda Warnaweera. He would have been a nasty customer if he pitched it on rough (imaging a off break breaking one and half feet at 100- 105k, Even when he pitched it on the normal pitch and got it on right length he was nasty, only problem is that he was not dead accurate as Murali) and would have hit many bread baskets.

 

[Migara]

What I love about this thread is how weird the arguments have become.

Everything you cannot get a grip is not weird

 

[G.I.Joe]

Ya, those are small muscles and called white fibers, and that's what you use when you play carrom. I am talking about anerobic and aerobic respiration differences of red fibre muscles during sports.

Weren't you discussing fast bowlers? What's of relevance to them is fast twitch fibres, the type that are white and depend on anaerobic respiration.

 

[Debris]

Everything you cannot get a grip is not weird

Come on, you gotta admit the fact the BMI of weight-lifters is being discussed is a little weird.

 

[Migara]

Come on, you gotta admit the fact the BMI of weight-lifters is being discussed is a little weird.

My statement was corrected. Yes, weight lifters are odd when it comes to BMIs and so do gymnasats. Now the argument was that I have underestimated the BMI of a fast bowler when I say 20 - 24. So e it, it's fine. Use your estimation of 28, and the differences what I've been discussing gets exaggerated. most people have got the argument on the wrong end and splitting hairs on BMIs of sportsmen, where they don't appreciate that the shorter individuals are lighter than taller ones and their weight is a function of the square of the their heights. Hence taller bowlers damage the pitch more than shorter bowlers, and further away from the batsman due to the difference of stride lengths.

 

[Top_Cat]

The main difference here is to use the rough, you have to give it a serious rip. Other than Murali, Warne and MacGill and perhaps Warnaweera, no body was able to do it in last 30 years. When McGrath and co created perfect rough for Warne, Kumble could not use it because he did not spin it much to take advantage of it.

Yeah but the fly in that ointment is that Kumble has the best record of a visiting spinner in Australia, well, ever. He found a way to bowl relatively well in Australia and it wasn't through big spinning balls out of the rough. Suffocating accuracy, using the bounce, subtle variation, patience. Warne had big turn, yes, but he also had pin-point accuracy and had the patience to work on a bloke for hours if he needed to. It's why he struggled in India I reckon; early career he really only had the big turning leg-break and the flipper, bowled pretty one-dimensionally to good players of spin. All he had to fall back on when they didn't work was accuracy and against guys like Azhar, etc. you need a bit more than that.

Saw most of Murali's bowling here and it wasn't the lack of spin or bounce that stopped him from doing as well as elsewhere, just don't think he was patient enough. Was a bit too quick to resort to the attempted knock-out ball/fancy trick. He came here under massive, massive pressure as a visiting GOAT (not to mention he still got heaps from the bloody crowd) with fairly weak support so it's not surprising if he felt it a bit more and tried a bit too hard to rip the Aussie top-order to bits. That's on top of it being notoriously hard to bowl finger spin here.

Similar to Tim May; bloke ripped it miles but resorted to the knock-out punch a bit too quickly so never bowled really well, one or two spells aside. Harbhajan, I think, found a good balance of attack and patience last time and I reckon he'll do well next time he comes to Aus for that reason.

On the other and Wasim never hits the pitch hard, Even if he did, Saqlain gets half the turn what Murali used to get, and hence cannot utilise the rough far outside off. Same story goes for Harbhajan as well. So it is no surprise that they've not used rough much. On other hand Swann spins it a mammoth amount for a finger spinner, and he may be able to take use of it. Anyway, we have to wait and see whether Swann is good enough for that.

If I had a chance to bring back one SL player to play on Aussie tracks, I would bring Jayananda Warnaweera. He would have been a nasty customer if he pitched it on rough (imaging a off break breaking one and half feet at 100- 105k, Even when he pitched it on the normal pitch and got it on right length he was nasty, only problem is that he was not dead accurate as Murali) and would have hit many bread baskets.

See, like I said, being able to turn the ball miles isn't enough. If Swan reckons he can roll up here, put big revs on the ball and clean up, his day will be ruined really quickly.

 

[JBH001]

You are a perceptive man, T_C.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah but the fly in that ointment is that Kumble has the best record of a visiting spinner in Australia, well, ever. He found a way to bowl relatively well in Australia and it wasn't through big spinning balls out of the rough. Suffocating accuracy, using the bounce, subtle variation, patience. Warne had big turn, yes, but he also had pin-point accuracy and had the patience to work on a bloke for hours if he needed to. It's why he struggled in India I reckon; early career he really only had the big turning leg-break and the flipper, bowled pretty one-dimensionally to good players of spin. All he had to fall back on when they didn't work was accuracy and against guys like Azhar, etc. you need a bit more than that.

Saw most of Murali's bowling here and it wasn't the lack of spin or bounce that stopped him from doing as well as elsewhere, just don't think he was patient enough. Was a bit too quick to resort to the attempted knock-out ball/fancy trick. He came here under massive, massive pressure as a visiting GOAT (not to mention he still got heaps from the bloody crowd) with fairly weak support so it's not surprising if he felt it a bit more and tried a bit too hard to rip the Aussie top-order to bits. That's on top of it being notoriously hard to bowl finger spin here.

Similar to Tim May; bloke ripped it miles but resorted to the knock-out punch a bit too quickly so never bowled really well, one or two spells aside. Harbhajan, I think, found a good balance of attack and patience last time and I reckon he'll do well next time he comes to Aus for that reason.



See, like I said, being able to turn the ball miles isn't enough. If Swan reckons he can roll up here, put big revs on the ball and clean up, his day will be ruined really quickly.

Excellent post, mate..

 

[Debris]

My statement was corrected. Yes, weight lifters are odd when it comes to BMIs and so do gymnasats. Now the argument was that I have underestimated the BMI of a fast bowler when I say 20 - 24. So e it, it's fine. Use your estimation of 28, and the differences what I've been discussing gets exaggerated. most people have got the argument on the wrong end and splitting hairs on BMIs of sportsmen, where they don't appreciate that the shorter individuals are lighter than taller ones and their weight is a function of the square of the their heights. Hence taller bowlers damage the pitch more than shorter bowlers, and further away from the batsman due to the difference of stride lengths.

This was not meant as a criticism of your argument, just general amazement at where some of these discussions end up.

 

[Matt79]

I get all warm and gooey when T_C posts like that...