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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Debris

International 12th Man
And how many 6 foot batsmen Warne would have had to encounter... seriously? Aren't most batsmen around the world on the shorter side?
You are making the assumption here that the footmarks produced are more useful for short batsmen than tall. And there are a lot of players over 6 foot (most fast bowlers for a start). In any case, there is a lot of difference between 5 foot 4 and 5 foot 10 as well.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You are making the assumption here that the footmarks produced are more useful for short batsmen than tall. And there are a lot of players over 6 foot (most fast bowlers for a start). In any case, there is a lot of difference between 5 foot 4 and 5 foot 10 as well.
No, I am makiing the assumption that most batsmen fall in the under 6 foot category and therefore the length of the rough is roughly the same for all of them... pun unintended..
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I thought there would be more individual differences involved in stride length other than simply height.

Anyway, it's been nice visiting this thread and I'll be back when conversation turns to Warne also benefitting in SL as the humidity levels were around the same as they are in Australia, whereas Murali struggles with the dryness in the air in Adelaide thus contributing to...something.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
No, I am makiing the assumption that most batsmen fall in the under 6 foot category and therefore the length of the rough is roughly the same for all of them... pun unintended..
And presumably that the Australian fast bowlers placed the rough at exactly the right spot for these batsmen. I think we will have to disagree here. I think it more likely that Warne aimed at the rough than the rough was at the spot where he liked to land the ball.
 

Migara

International Coach
But surely this theory only works if all batsmen are the same size? You have to vary your length depending on the size of the batsman, I would have thought.
Yes it is. But the difference in the length won't matter much if the rough is on a good length or just short of it. If the balls pitching on the rough are half volleys, there is less problems.
 

Migara

International Coach
And how many 6 foot batsmen Warne would have had to encounter... seriously? Aren't most batsmen around the world on the shorter side?
Now how does this make any connection with the rough? Warne and Murali bowled to similar batsmen (only difference is Warne bowled to shorter batsmen of SL, while Murali bowled to taller batsmen of AUS, but the other teams does not change).
 

Migara

International Coach
And presumably that the Australian fast bowlers placed the rough at exactly the right spot for these batsmen. I think we will have to disagree here. I think it more likely that Warne aimed at the rough than the rough was at the spot where he liked to land the ball.
Disagree. If Warne was bowling for SL, he wouldn't had much rough to work with. I've never seen Warne aiming for the distant rough spots created by shorter bowlers. He always aimed at ones created by his seamers (of course the difference blurs when Aus played ENG, SAF, NZ and WI, where there fast men also creates rough in similar lengths). But I've never seen Warne aim for rough created by Indians or Pakistanis (Lankan bowlers his day were more left armers).

Put it another way, if SL had three Nuwan Zoysa's bowling in the line up, Murali would have got a lot of rough to work with. That is the very reason you never see Murali taking wickets off the rough. because rough created by Lankan seamers are useless depending on the length.
 

Burgey

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Disagree. If Warne was bowling for SL, he wouldn't had much rough to work with. I've never seen Warne aiming for the distant rough spots created by shorter bowlers. He always aimed at ones created by his seamers (of course the difference blurs when Aus played ENG, SAF, NZ and WI, where there fast men also creates rough in similar lengths). But I've never seen Warne aim for rough created by Indians or Pakistanis (Lankan bowlers his day were more left armers).

Put it another way, if SL had three Nuwan Zoysa's bowling in the line up, Murali would have got a lot of rough to work with. That is the very reason you never see Murali taking wickets off the rough. because rough created by Lankan seamers are useless depending on the length.
But how would it help him when most of the rough would be outside the RH's leg stump and he's an offie? If he wanted to hit it a lot, you either know its a doosra, as nothing else is a threat, or if its an offie you let it go down leg (if you're RH) or a mile outside off (if you're LH).

I mean, Murali had the benefit of Vaas leaving rough outside off stump, whwther he was 6 feet 6 or 5 feet 10. I'd have thought, ideally, he would have wanted more left hand bowlers to help.

Dunno though, I might be missing the point a bit :).
 

Migara

International Coach
But how would it help him when most of the rough would be outside the RH's leg stump and he's an offie? If he wanted to hit it a lot, you either know its a doosra, as nothing else is a threat, or if its an offie you let it go down leg (if you're RH) or a mile outside off (if you're LH).
Now, Aussie line up of bowlers in Warne's time would never create useful rough for Murali. That is understandable. Murali was in a team where there were 2 - 3 left arm seamers were bowling, but because they were short never created useful rough. If Murali was in current AUS side where Bollinger and Johnson are frequent members he would have run havoc with the rough created by them, because they create it at suitable length for a spinner our side off of RHB.

I mean, Murali had the benefit of Vaas leaving rough outside off stump, whether he was 6 feet 6 or 5 feet 10. I'd have thought, ideally, he would have wanted more left hand bowlers to help.
It makes a huge difference. Length change of a foot means a lot to a spinner. Additionally 5' 10" Vaas will create less rough than a 6' 4" Johnson because of the difference of the weight.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
Now, Aussie line up of bowlers in Warne's time would never create useful rough for Murali. That is understandable. Murali was in a team where there were 2 - 3 left arm seamers were bowling, but because they were short never created useful rough. If Murali was in current AUS side where Bollinger and Johnson are frequent members he would have run havoc with the rough created by them, because they create it at suitable length for a spinner our side off of RHB.

It makes a huge difference. Length change of a foot means a lot to a spinner. Additionally 5' 10" Vaas will create less rough than a 6' 4" Johnson because of the difference of the weight.
It is annoyingly hard to find weights for players. I assume you have a references for player weights somewhere. Anyway, Murali spent much of his time bowling on pitches where there was no need for rough.

I should say at this point that I am undecided as to which was the better bowler. I probably pick Murali on helpful pitches and Warne on unhelpful ones from a bowling point of view. I just find this argument in favour of Murali a bit silly.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
It is annoyingly hard to find weights for players. I assume you have a references for player weights somewhere. Anyway, Murali spent much of his time bowling on pitches where there was no need for rough.

I should say at this point that I am undecided as to which was the better bowler. I probably pick Murali on helpful pitches and Warne on unhelpful ones from a bowling point of view. I just find this argument in favour of Murali a bit silly.
And Warne spent most of his time bowling at batsmen against whom there was no need of rough either... :p
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
And presumably that the Australian fast bowlers placed the rough at exactly the right spot for these batsmen. I think we will have to disagree here. I think it more likely that Warne aimed at the rough than the rough was at the spot where he liked to land the ball.
Not at all... Warney was a genius in that he adapted his bowling style enough to do amazing things off the rough outside leg for RHBs...


But the point I guess is that if he had shorter bowlers, perhaps the rough would have been fuller and maybe slightly easier for the batsmen.. But all this is just guess work. Knowing Warne as a bowler, he would have easily found another way to bamboozle batsmen out... :)
 

Migara

International Coach
It is annoyingly hard to find weights for players.
There's a thing called BMI. (Body Mass Index). All sportsmen should main tain it somewhere between 20 - 24 to be fit. When you know two out of three of BMI, weight or height, missing parameter can be calculated very easily.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
There's a thing called BMI. (Body Mass Index). All sportsmen should main tain it somewhere between 20 - 24 to be fit. When you know two out of three of BMI, weight or height, missing parameter can be calculated very easily.
Nah, you can't rely on one of the parameters being a reference range in order to derive weights. The very fact that normal BMI is referenced as a range means that you could have people with their heights as much as three quarters of a foot apart falling within the same BMI category.
 

Migara

International Coach
Nah, you can't rely on one of the parameters being a reference range in order to derive weights. The very fact that normal BMI is referenced as a range means that you could have people with their heights as much as three quarters of a foot apart falling within the same BMI category.
Of course it is. A BMI of 20 is the value for an individual of 45kg and 1.5m as well as 80kg and 2.0m. The point is that you will not find many sportsman where BMI is less than 20 or more than 24. At least in cricket. A median average BMI of 22 should work well for the comparison.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Of course it is. A BMI of 20 is the value for an individual of 45kg and 1.5m as well as 80kg and 2.0m. The point is that you will not find many sportsman where BMI is less than 20 or more than 24. At least in cricket. A median average BMI of 22 should work well for the comparison.
Nah, what you're doing is establishing BMI as a constant,so that it that implies that the other two variables (height and weight) enjoy a directly proportional relationship in all cases. And that's not a given at all. It's more likely to be so, yes, but not necessary. Its a range for a reason.

Anyway, I've only read the last few posts of the latest installment in the saga, and I presume we're on the factors influencing the formation of the rough? :p I'd think there were plenty of other factors that went into it too, like length of stride, vector of final delivery stride impact ( eg: greater vertical component in Zaheer's final jump vs lesser so in Wasim Akram's skiddy approach), pivoting off the front foot after delivery (none at all vs some pivoting vs deliberate pivoting to create the rough) etc etc.
 
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TumTum

Banned
I think this is rather a stupid argument. All I know is that some Australian pitches (eg SCG, MCG) are made so that they will produce some rough on days 4 and 5. Although this rough isn't as deadly as people think at first sight, it is more to do with the dark soil underneath the pitch.
 

Migara

International Coach
I think this is rather a stupid argument. All I know is that some Australian pitches (eg SCG, MCG) are made so that they will produce some rough on days 4 and 5. Although this rough isn't as deadly as people think at first sight, it is more to do with the dark soil underneath the pitch.
Well, you can see it for yourself this season when England arrives. Johnson and Bollinger will create some rough for Swann and he'll be bowling in to it in the last two days. After seeing how Aussies handle it we could discuss what Murali would have done with such rough.
 

Top_Cat

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Meh, rough in OZ doesn't help that much. Saqlain came to OZ a couple of times with a massive rep and, a couple of frantic hours in Hobart aside (where he wrecked OZ with his doosra, generally pitched to the right of the rough anyway), was largely innocuous even with Wasim in the side. Harbhajan's last tour, he had two lefties to rough up the turf outside off and didn't rip the Aussies apart but was at least useful.

Fact is, it's tough to bowl finger-spin in OZ. Murali's record here doesn't mean that much, tbh. There was that one spell in the World XI match on a lively deck where he was just unbelievable for a couple of hours but just shows you how well you have to bowl and have conditions in your favour to do well here.
 

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