*Official* South Africa in West Indies

[WindieWeathers]

I think it's a fair few more than 2, compared to the 1 person who has the stupid idea of opening with Chanderpaul.

Another "spokesman" i see!! , Gayle is the only genuine opener in the squad right now anyway so whether it's Dowlin or Chanders who opens with him it really doesn't make much difference.

 

[WindieWeathers]

They may struggle at times against top quality spin, but not against run of the mill twirlers, and sadly at this moment in time, is pretty much what West Indies have.

Are you serious? one of our "run of the mill" twirlers took England apart at Sabina park last year and has a 5fer against Australia IN Australia!!, he might not be in the same league as Swanny but he's proven himself on the big stage already,

And i also have to ask if you've actually seen Shillingford play? my guess is you probably haven't so i'd advise you to watch the guy in action first before lambasting his abilities, cause imo he has every chance of making the same impact as Swann has.

 

[popepouri]

They may struggle at times against top quality spin, but not against run of the mill twirlers, and sadly at this moment in time, is pretty much what West Indies have.

They didn't seem that bad against the Indian spinners earlier this year, keeping in mind they won the first Indian test by a fair margin. Mishra and Singh's figures combining to be 2 for 304.

 

[Woodster]

They didn't seem that bad against the Indian spinners earlier this year, keeping in mind they won the first Indian test by a fair margin. Mishra and Singh's figures combining to be 2 for 304.

I intimated they struggled at times, not every time, like in the second Test of the series you mention, where Mishra and Harbhajan's figures combined for the second innings read 88.3-35-137-8.

 

[Woodster]

Are you serious? one of our "run of the mill" twirlers took England apart at Sabina park last year and has a 5fer against Australia IN Australia!!, he might not be in the same league as Swanny but he's proven himself on the big stage already,

And i also have to ask if you've actually seen Shillingford play? my guess is you probably haven't so i'd advise you to watch the guy in action first before lambasting his abilities, cause imo he has every chance of making the same impact as Swann has.

With all due respect, he isn't the only average spinner to run through England in the past. I'm not saying he's a poor Test bowler, at times he bowled very well in Australia, but he certainly wouldn't appear in the top quality spinner's bracket.

Harsh facts are 35 Test wickets at 45 apiece is simply not top standard. He may well improve those figures over time, but don't think Kallis, Amla et al, will lose too much sleep.

On Shillingford, you are quite right in that I have seen little of him, nor have I or would I lambast his abilities, tough to do when you've not seen a player. However, it would be very difficult to put him in the top list of spin bowlers when he has never played Test cricket. Are you already suggesting he's top drawer ? Of course, you'll have seen him play.

 

[popepouri]

I intimated they struggled at times, not every time, like in the second Test of the series you mention, where Mishra and Harbhajan's figures combined for the second innings read 88.3-35-137-8.

Didn't read that "at times" part but then this debate is pointless because I'm sure I can point to various other scorecards where every team has struggled against spin bowling at one point and have done well in others. This just makes them like any other international team who struggles against good bowling or bats poorly.

 

[WindieWeathers]

They didn't seem that bad against the Indian spinners earlier this year, keeping in mind they won the first Indian test by a fair margin. Mishra and Singh's figures combining to be 2 for 304.

What about the 2nd Test against India? they looked all at sea against spin in that one imo.

 

[Woodster]

Didn't read that "at times" part but then this debate is pointless because I'm sure I can point to various other scorecards where every team has struggled against spin bowling at one point and have done well in others. This just makes them like any other international team who struggles against good bowling or bats poorly.

Yes of course that's true. My initial point was that I cannot see South Africa struggling against WI spin attack, despite concerns from some corners regarding their weaknesses against slow bowling. They have struggled against some of the best spinners, as you say like everyone else has at various times, but I don't put Benn in that category.

 

[popepouri]

What about the 2nd Test against India? they looked all at sea against spin in that one imo.

Your point was whether they don't fancy spin at all. I've provided an example where they can play it well (on a turning pitch) and win. They play spin just as well as any other international team.

By your logic, India can't play spin either given their last tour of Sri Lanka.

 

[WindieWeathers]

With all due respect, he isn't the only average spinner to run through England in the past. I'm not saying he's a poor Test bowler, at times he bowled very well in Australia, but he certainly wouldn't appear in the top quality spinner's bracket.

Harsh facts are 35 Test wickets at 45 apiece is simply not top standard. He may well improve those figures over time, but don't think Kallis, Amla et al, will lose too much sleep.

On Shillingford, you are quite right in that I have seen little of him, nor have I or would I lambast his abilities, tough to do when you've not seen a player. However, it would be very difficult to put him in the top list of spin bowlers when he has never played Test cricket. Are you already suggesting he's top drawer ? Of course, you'll have seen him play.

Well you said "all WI have right now is run of the mill spinners" and as Shilly is in the Test squad right now i assumed you were talking about him, but let me get back to Benn first, he had a slow start to his career and couldn't buy a wicket for love nor money when he first played at Test level, then when we toured NZ in 2008 suddenly he was looking more dangerous in the ODI's and it seemed to click for him from there, since then he's played three Tests series, two against England (the one at home he got a 4fer) and one in Australia of which he got the 5fer, so i believe his recent form is much better than his overall stats suggest.

Now back to Shilly, he really does remind me of Swanny, had a few problems when he was younger but now he's come out of nowhere and is really turning on the style, he's always taken wickets in our regional competition but was always overlooked by the selectors who favoured "bigger names" such as Miller and Jaggermouth, but he was unexpectedly picked for the A-team a few months ago and then got around six 4fers in a row against the likes of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh A, he also took wickets against South Africa A too, he's in the form of his life and i'm counting on him to make the difference in this Test series, if he's in the mood he can do some serious damage to the Saffies imo.

 

[Woodster]

Well you said "all WI have right now is run of the mill spinners" and as Shilly is in the Test squad right now i assumed you were talking about him, but let me get back to Benn first, he had a slow start to his career and couldn't buy a wicket for love nor money when he first played at Test level, then when we toured NZ in 2008 suddenly he was looking more dangerous in the ODI's and it seemed to click for him from there, since then he's played three Tests series, two against England (the one at home he got a 4fer) and one in Australia of which he got the 5fer, so i believe his recent form is much better than his overall stats suggest.

Now back to Shilly, he really does remind me of Swanny, had a few problems when he was younger but now he's come out of nowhere and is really turning on the style, he's always taken wickets in our regional competition but was always overlooked by the selectors who favoured "bigger names" such as Miller and Jaggermouth, but he was unexpectedly picked for the A-team a few months ago and then got around six 4fers in a row against the likes of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh A, he also took wickets against South Africa A too, he's in the form of his life and i'm counting on him to make the difference in this Test series, if he's in the mood he can do some serious damage to the Saffies imo.

That is indeed your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, to expect a debutant to make the difference in a series against South Africa is, imo, setting yourself up for a bit of a fall. However, as you say, I am yet to see him and so will await to see his capabilities.

I'm aware what Benn has done as I've probably watched nearly every Test he has featured in. He may have struggled in the one Test he played against New Zealand, but has chipped away in terms of picking up wickets, nothing special but weighs in with a couple of wickets here and there.

Of course his 8 wickets against England at Kingston and his 5 wicket haul at Adelaide demonstrate he can be a handful in the right conditions and on his day. Probably doesn't use his height to its full effect, and doesn't rag it around as much as others, yet he can be useful. Just don't think he's up there with the likes of Swann, Vettori, Harbhajan etc.

 

[marc71178]

Well you said "all WI have right now is run of the mill spinners" and as Shilly is in the Test squad right now i assumed you were talking about him, but let me get back to Benn first, he had a slow start to his career and couldn't buy a wicket for love nor money when he first played at Test level, then when we toured NZ in 2008 suddenly he was looking more dangerous in the ODI's and it seemed to click for him from there, since then he's played three Tests series, two against England (the one at home he got a 4fer) and one in Australia of which he got the 5fer, so i believe his recent form is much better than his overall stats suggest.

Oh yes, clearly - his last 3 series he's taking his wickets at 41.37 rather than 45.31 for his career - a definite improvement but still very very average.

 

[Flem274*]

Oh look my "NZ groupie" is at it again!!

1. It seems to have been lost on you that AN NZ FAN came on this thread and downplayed our middle order, so i merely asked him if HIS SIDE'S middle order was better?!! he never responded so i guess that answers the question.

2. Don't embarrass yourself by telling me what i do and don't know about WI cricket, YOU DON'T KNOW ME!!.

3. "Majority"? what two people? if you want to be their "spokesman" you're gonna have to do a better job than that i'm afraid!! .

4. I'll take "stupidity" over being an immature baby who can't handle someone else having a different opinion to their own any day of the week thanks!! .

Quoting for lolz.

 

[WindieWeathers]

That is indeed your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, to expect a debutant to make the difference in a series against South Africa is, imo, setting yourself up for a bit of a fall. However, as you say, I am yet to see him and so will await to see his capabilities.

I'm aware what Benn has done as I've probably watched nearly every Test he has featured in. He may have struggled in the one Test he played against New Zealand, but has chipped away in terms of picking up wickets, nothing special but weighs in with a couple of wickets here and there.

Of course his 8 wickets against England at Kingston and his 5 wicket haul at Adelaide demonstrate he can be a handful in the right conditions and on his day. Probably doesn't use his height to its full effect, and doesn't rag it around as much as others, yet he can be useful. Just don't think he's up there with the likes of Swann, Vettori, Harbhajan etc.

Though Shilly will be making his debut he's no rookie in cricketing terms as he's just turned 27, but sometimes a player can emerge out of nowhere and make an impact, pretty much like Swann has done, i know it's a stretch to expect miracles this early but with the form he's in right now i believe he can be a match winner, i guess we'll have to wait and see.

In closing, i've never said Benn is as good as the spinners you named, but i also don't agree that he's as poor as you suggested in your other post either, he can be average at times yes but what cannot be denied is the fact that he's done damage against two of the top teams in the past year and a half and there's no reason why he can't do the same in these Tests coming up too.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Quoting for lolz.

What no reply full of tears and grumbles? i'm impressed!! .

 

[Howsie]

And let me guess NZ have a better middle order right? i'm actully a WI fan so I KNOW what these players are capable of, if Barath was availible we wouldn't even be having this debate, but as he isn't i believe we'd be better off having Darren Bravo in the middle order, SUE ME!! .

Yeah New Zealand does actually.

 

[andyc]

WW, there's no need to take it as a personal insult when someone points out what they see as a weakness in the team that you support. And bringing up shortcomings of that poster's own team is likewise not needed and is only going to result in the thread being taken off topic.

 

[roseboy64]

Seems he dislikes NZ posters or something. Brings NZ up every time. Not n

 

[WindieWeathers]

Yeah New Zealand does actually.

Yeah sure you do!! .

 

[WindieWeathers]

WW, there's no need to take it as a personal insult when someone points out what they see as a weakness in the team that you support. And bringing up shortcomings of that poster's own team is likewise not needed and is only going to result in the thread being taken off topic.

Point taken, but some people actually went a step further and got personal which is something i won't tolerate, pardon me for the pettiness though as i know it isn't helpful to the thread.