English Ringers, mate!

[social]

Actually you could only qualify for British citizenship on residence. For the overseas born to be eligible for a British passport one or both of the parents must be British other than by descent. Your mum or dad could qualify but you couldn't.

You'd be eligible for the rugby team of whichever of the home nations your gran was born in tho. As a semi-interesting aside, when John Leslie moved to Glasgow from Otago he played for the Scottish national team based on his Granddad being born there, but was also registered as one of Glasgow's three overseas players because he didn't qualify for a UK passport.

Maybe so

I was on the books of a county years ago and they were reasonably keen to have me change my status when they found out I had an English granny

Didnt interest me for more than a nanosecond as:

a. my ambition was to play for Oz; and

b. the life of a county pro held about as much attraction as watching paint dry (and was less lucrative)

 

[GIMH]

So Pattinson is the only "real" Englishman amongst them?

Funny how he was the one that was ostracised

Bottom line is that none of these guys is "English" but the law says that they qualify so end of really

I'd say he's the 'least' English, but really, I think when people are of mixed nationality, it is up to them where they feel their ties to. I have a cousin who is a US citizen but was born over here and to an English mother (my Dad's sister) and he is a proud Englishman.

Pattinson was ostracised because he didn't deserve the call-up, not for being an Aussie

 

[zaremba]

Dont take Conn seriously

His rep in Oz is rubbish and he generally only writes stuff to get a rise out of people

Don't worry, I'm aware of this. We have plenty of arsehole journalists ourselves, although by and large they tend to stay away from cricket

 

[Langeveldt]

Also interesting that Kieswetter's schooling was here in the UK and that he decided relatively early on he wanted to represent us and not SA.

He is probably the most "English" of their imports.. The most likely to wear socks underneath sandles when on holiday.. Apart from his surname, I couldn't tell he was a Saffer when we played against him.. Mind you, I've been in SA longer than some of these imports and am still considered to be totally English.. I think it's based on your sporting ability.. Remember when Greg Rusedski was Canadian when he sucked, and English whenever he won anything?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Maybe so

I was on the books of a county years ago and they were reasonably keen to have me change my status when they found out I had an English granny

Didnt interest me for more than a nanosecond as:

a. my ambition was to play for Oz; and

b. the life of a county pro held about as much attraction as watching paint dry (and was less lucrative)

Yeah, but that's not the same thing tho. They might've thought you'd be eligible for indefinite leave to remain based on ancestral links, so you wouldn't be classed as "overseas". As with yer Kolpaks and EU passport holders it doesn't mean you'd be eligible for England.

In any case a UK passport & playing as a domestic player in the CC doesn't seem to be a bar on playing for Oz: Symonds, Jaques & Harris have all done it and Steve Smith had a few games for Middlesex 2nds on the strength of his.

 

[Jarquis]

He is probably the most "English" of their imports.. The most likely to wear socks underneath sandles when on holiday.. Apart from his surname, I couldn't tell he was a Saffer when we played against him.. Mind you, I've been in SA longer than some of these imports and am still considered to be totally English.. I think it's based on your sporting ability.. Remember when Greg Rusedski was Canadian when he sucked, and English whenever he won anything?

Andrew Murray flicks casually between Scottish and British nowadays.

 

[silentstriker]

Don't understand this obsession with 'foreigners' and 'proper Englishman'. If someone was born somewhere else and wants to apply their trade in my country, I consider that a compliment to my domestic structure, and if they are the best player available - you pick them.

I don't really see it as a negative on English cricket that so many people want to play for them. They see it as a better system (for whatever reason, monetarily, structurally, fairness wise, etc).

 

[silentstriker]

If I was a good domestic player with a chance of making the Test team and I could choose any country to live in, especially now with the IPL, I'd pick the English system over any other. Coaching and fitness are terrible in the Indian system, and selection is too often subjective and unfair (similar in other subcontinent countries). Elsewhere, it might be more professional but the monetary rewards aren't the same and/or it's very insular.

Seems to be it's the best overall for the players, even if in terms of purely the level of competition, it may not be as high as the Australian system.

 

[social]

Yeah, but that's not the same thing tho. They might've thought you'd be eligible for indefinite leave to remain based on ancestral links, so you wouldn't be classed as "overseas". As with yer Kolpaks and EU passport holders it doesn't mean you'd be eligible for England.

In any case a UK passport & playing as a domestic player in the CC doesn't seem to be a bar on playing for Oz: Symonds, Jaques & Harris have all done it and Steve Smith had a few games for Middlesex 2nds on the strength of his.

From what I remember (and it was a mid 80s and I was an 18 year old with zero interest in details), it was both - I'd be qualified as a domestic and to play for Eng

It was basically a case of produce the granny's attested UK birth certificate, sign the forms, wait for the UK public service to process it, and hey presto, in 15 years I'd be qualified to work in a sports store or as an insurance salesman

Anyway, I might have been young but I wasnt a dreamer

At the time, a "capped" played was on between 12 and 20k per year and that was never going to cut it as far as I was concerned so between that and the fact that I was Australian at heart made it a pretty easy decision and it never went any further than a few chats

 

[social]

If I was a good domestic player with a chance of making the Test team and I could choose any country to live in, especially now with the IPL, I'd pick the English system over any other. Coaching and fitness are terrible in the Indian system, and selection is too often subjective and unfair (similar in other subcontinent countries). Elsewhere, it might be more professional but the monetary rewards aren't the same and/or it's very insular.

Seems to be it's the best overall for the players, even if in terms of purely the level of competition, it may not be as high as the Australian system.

I think you'd have to pick Oz - domestic players are paid relatively well and they are available for the full IPL season

No brainer when you take into account living standards

 

[silentstriker]

Well probably less opportunities though with only a few teams. How well are domestic players paid in Australia?

 

[Furball]

Oh please

Given 4 years and the requisite amount of ability, I could qualify for to play for England because my grand-mother was born in the UK

That does not make me "British", it simply means that I qualify for a British passport and the same can be said for Darren Pattinson, KP, Trott, Kieswetter, Jones etc

They were born, bred, have their roots in and learnt the game outside the country (just as Wessels, Patel, etc etc etc did for others)

It's not illegal and I have no real objection to it but let's not try to paint these guys as something other than what they are - players produced by another cricketing system who have decided to throw their lot in with another country

That's your particular situation though. Pietersen and Lumb have English parents, and Kieswetter has a Scottish mother. Kieswetter finished his schooling in England, and neither Kieswetter nor Lumb have played any domestic cricket in South Africa. Pietersen started at Natal, and threw in his lot at the age of 20 to come to England and be a success - bear in mind Pietersen was used by Natal as a specialist offie who could blast a bit in the lower order. It's not like Pietersen flirted a lot with the idea of playing with South Africa before throwing his lot in with England in 2004 - he came over here in 2000 with the specific aim of playing for England.

The fact that he was born and bred in South Africa is of absolutely no relevance - Pietersen never played any age level cricket for South Africa, and played First Class cricket for Natal for about 2 years - it's not as if CSA have invested millions of Rand in his development only for Pietersen to stick two fingers up to South Africa. Pietersen left South Africa because the system was broken and letting players like him down.

 

[Goughy]

From what I remember (and it was a mid 80s and I was an 18 year old with zero interest in details), it was both - I'd be qualified as a domestic and to play for Eng

It was basically a case of produce the granny's attested UK birth certificate, sign the forms, wait for the UK public service to process it, and hey presto, in 15 years I'd be qualified to work in a sports store or as an insurance salesman

Anyway, I might have been young but I wasnt a dreamer

As Brumby said, thats an interesting story but it isnt based on nationality law.

 

[Goughy]

If we are telling personal stories to illustrate points. I was born and raised in England but consider myself American. I would of course, be proud to represent England if given the choice despite not living there. My kids were born in SA and live in the US and if they represent England at anything (by virtue of their British citizenship) then more power to them and if they consider themselves British then that is fine as well. Its all about choices and opportunities.

 

[TT Boy]

Also interesting that Kieswetter's schooling was here in the UK and that he decided relatively early on he wanted to represent us and not SA.

Kieswetter went to Bishops, same school as Gibbs and was representing Western Province when he turned out for RSA U19. He went to a public school in England to do A-Levels, proper schooling was done in the Republic and considering he was representing South Africa U19 at the age of 18, that ambition to play for England must have been well hidden.

 

[Jarquis]

Well as far as I understood it Kieswetter went to Millfield and when SA were rumoured to be considering selecting him in a squad a few years ago he said no thanks.

 

[social]

Well as far as I understood it Kieswetter went to Millfield and when SA were rumoured to be considering selecting him in a squad a few years ago he said no thanks.

Spent a year at Millfield

 

[social]

As Brumby said, thats an interesting story but it isnt based on nationality law.

Well it is to a degree as my lineage made it relatively easy for me to gain residency and from that point it was merely a matter of time before I qualified

Anyway, as I said earlier, I dont have a problem with it but let's not kid ourselves that these guys are "English" in any sense other than that they have qualified from a legal perspective

 

[Jono]

This is what I dislike about having a T20 forum and Cricket Chat.

Two threads now basically talking about the same issue, and I'm getting confused on who posted what and where.

 

[four_or_six]

Well it is to a degree as my lineage made it relatively easy for me to gain residency and from that point it was merely a matter of time before I qualified

Anyway, as I said earlier, I dont have a problem with it but let's not kid ourselves that these guys are "English" in any sense other than that they have qualified from a legal perspective

In what other way can you be "English", tbh?