Ambrose Vs Mcgrath?

[Himannv]

this is why I think a bowler like Anderson is underachieving currently,

Personally think he's fantastic as a seam bowler. Perhaps in a less batsmen dominant era he could have made a much bigger name for himself.

 

[Top_Cat]

So I guess you believe that if a group of talented bowlers came through in the following years (from varying nations) we could see batting averages drop by the margins that they increased during the early 2000s?

Doubt it, tbh. Most of the quicks pre-2000 weren't big swingers either. Reckon flatter pitches, changes in batting techniques, etc. have had more to do with those scores. Plus, I'm in the camp that reckons Ponting would have fared just as well against bowlers a decade befre his peak.

b) fast bowlers like to keep their secrets amongst themselves; there can be a bit of a "once you've reached a certain level, they'll let you in on their secrets" about the best of them.

There seems to be a fair bit of mythology associated with that sort of thing too. I don't recall Bichel being much of a seamer (tended to struggle when not on the Gabba garden)so one wonders how often he actually got them to go? It's useful for bowlers if batters out there even think someone has a 'special grip' for a knockout ball that they'll have to keep a look out for.

Read a book by Imran Khan yeeeers ago where he detailed exact grips for seaming the ball in and out (and cutting/swinging, etc.). Often wondered how well-received the book was because it gave up some damn handy pointers.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Bichel's methodology was slightly altering the position of the thumb on the ball. May not have been so obvious with FC balls on flat wickets, but I reckon you can bet that it would have worked with Kookaburra Regulations on grade wickets.

 

[Top_Cat]

Bichel's methodology was slightly altering the position of the thumb on the ball. May not have been so obvious with FC balls on flat wickets, but I reckon you can bet that it would have worked with Kookaburra Regulations on grade wickets.

Having never used a FC ball but have bowled with Kooka Regulations, what's the diff? Higher seam I presume?

 

[vic_orthdox]

Having never used a FC ball but have bowled with Kooka Regulations, what's the diff? Higher seam I presume?

FC ball has a lower seam, and I've generally found tends to maintain condition better, allowing the ball to swing for longer periods. A fair bit harder to get reverse swing out of.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I know Andy Bichel used to hold a ball in a specific manner for it to hit the seam and move inwards, a la an off-cutter.

A guy I used to play with taught me something similar for the leg-cutter. I always naturally moved it in to the batsman and he taught me to use a split grip with the outside finger down the side of the ball a bit. That way you drag your hand down that side of the ball when you release it. You either get it to move away or it slides straight on, but I found it would move away more often than not.

Also found the slight change of angle to left-handers when they first came would cause me to bowl a leg-cutter first up instead of an off-cutter for some reason.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah, remember getting taught the same thing. Was a big tip, tbh. For outswingers (mainly) and off-cutters, remember it being suggested to lift the index finger off the ball slightly in the delivery stride to relax it before letting go. The rationale was if you got it right, the ball swung away most of the time but, if not, it cut back. Either way, no matter what, you have some movement on the ball. Tried it, thought it worked quite well especially for out-swing. Wasim Akram used to do it regularly apparently.

EDIT: Not the best photo but you can see here his index finger is lifted slightly;

 

[Teja.]

Doubt it, tbh. Most of the quicks pre-2000 weren't big swingers either. Reckon flatter pitches, changes in batting techniques, etc. have had more to do with those scores. Plus, I'm in the camp that reckons Ponting would have fared just as well against bowlers a decade befre his peak.

Awta, With maybe perhaps a slight drop in average, I don't see Ponting, Dravid or Inzi(Kallis too) not averaging fifty(or very close) in any decade in the modern era or Martyn and Laxman not averaging 45 in any decade. Without wanting to pick a fight, I don't think I can say the same about Hayden or Sehwag, fantastic batsmen though they both are.

 

[GotSpin]

Doubt it, tbh. Most of the quicks pre-2000 weren't big swingers either. Reckon flatter pitches, changes in batting techniques, etc. have had more to do with those scores. Plus, I'm in the camp that reckons Ponting would have fared just as well against bowlers a decade befre his peak.
.

In saying that, there hasn't been a group of great fast bowlers in the last few years who have really excelled, only one or two. Perhaps, if pitches were a little more conducive to bowling, combined with the emergence of some great pace bowlers, I imagine quite a few batsmen will be found out since they have adjusted their batting techniques in the past few years. This is not to say Ponting and co. will suddenly become useless, but just those that have ordinary techniques but have done well due to somewhat poorer bowling (in comparison to previous generations) and pitches that aid aggressive batting. When ever a green pitch rears its head, as rare as it is, scores have dropped dramatically. While there's no real way of denying that the 2000s have favoured batsmen tremendously, I imagine that a lot of batsmen who have debuted in recent years could really suffer if bowling standards began to rise.

 

[Sir Alex]

a) the number of batsmen in the commentary box.
b) fast bowlers like to keep their secrets amongst themselves; there can be a bit of a "once you've reached a certain level, they'll let you in on their secrets" about the best of them.

Very interesting stuff. I had always wondered how Mcgrath used to manage the incutter almost at will. It's been such a superb weapon of his.

Also I wish there was some way to bowl the carpet-kisser which is essentially the opposite of the bouncer, without variation in length or speeds. I think it will be a great option for shorter pace bowlers on true bounce wickets where batsmen go back and across to pull the shorter one, only to be caught unawares as this one rockets to catch them plumb lbw or bowled.

 

[ankitj]

With multiple McGrath comparison threads running currently, I couldn't resist bumping this one up.

Two champion bowlers, I give it to Ambrose by a whisker.

 

[Athlai]

Hadlee > McGrath > Ambrose then?

 

[ankitj]

Hadlee > McGrath > Ambrose then?

That's in line with what various ranking exercises on CW have come up with. For me, top 5 pacers:

Marshall > Hadlee > Ambrose > McGrath > Trueman

 

[centurymaker]

In saying that, there hasn't been a group of great fast bowlers in the last few years who have really excelled, only one or two. Perhaps, if pitches were a little more conducive to bowling, combined with the emergence of some great pace bowlers, I imagine quite a few batsmen will be found out since they have adjusted their batting techniques in the past few years. This is not to say Ponting and co. will suddenly become useless, but just those that have ordinary techniques but have done well due to somewhat poorer bowling (in comparison to previous generations) and pitches that aid aggressive batting. When ever a green pitch rears its head, as rare as it is, scores have dropped dramatically. While there's no real way of denying that the 2000s have favoured batsmen tremendously, I imagine that a lot of batsmen who have debuted in recent years could really suffer if bowling standards began to rise.

completely awta

 

[smash84]

Read a book by Imran Khan yeeeers ago where he detailed exact grips for seaming the ball in and out (and cutting/swinging, etc.). Often wondered how well-received the book was because it gave up some damn handy pointers.

I saw that book once too at a friend's place......wayyyy back (late 80s probably) haven't seen it since. Do you remember the title?

That's in line with what various ranking exercises on CW have come up with. For me, top 5 pacers:

Marshall > Hadlee > Ambrose > McGrath > Trueman

you forgot to paste the link to your thread

In saying that, there hasn't been a group of great fast bowlers in the last few years who have really excelled, only one or two. Perhaps, if pitches were a little more conducive to bowling, combined with the emergence of some great pace bowlers, I imagine quite a few batsmen will be found out since they have adjusted their batting techniques in the past few years. This is not to say Ponting and co. will suddenly become useless, but just those that have ordinary techniques but have done well due to somewhat poorer bowling (in comparison to previous generations) and pitches that aid aggressive batting. When ever a green pitch rears its head, as rare as it is, scores have dropped dramatically. While there's no real way of denying that the 2000s have favoured batsmen tremendously, I imagine that a lot of batsmen who have debuted in recent years could really suffer if bowling standards began to rise.

awta

 

[smash84]

Also I wish there was some way to bowl the carpet-kisser which is essentially the opposite of the bouncer, without variation in length or speeds. I think it will be a great option for shorter pace bowlers on true bounce wickets where batsmen go back and across to pull the shorter one, only to be caught unawares as this one rockets to catch them plumb lbw or bowled.

Is the carpet kisser an actual delivery? Sounds like a flipper

Btw does anyone have a good compilation of flippers? I tried finding Shane Warne's but there is only one or two on youtube that i could locate

 

[vcs]

McGrath in this one. Reason being more wickets and better longevity at a similar average and strike rate, and was equally effective in the batsman friendly era. Not Ambrose's fault that his career didn't overlap with that era, but hey, you've got to split them somewhere.

 

[GotSpin]

Raging Bull for me

 

[Rush]

Why is it Curtly Ambrose with West Indies in brackets? So that we don't get confused with Curtly Ambrose from New Zealand?

 

[smash84]

I thought of that too