Burgey's Allan Border Appreciation Thread

[GraemeSmith]

Burge reacts to de Villiers being mentioned in the same breath as AB....

It's not that big of difference actually. de Villiers is clearly the better ODI batsman than Border since he averages about 12 more runs per match than Border and has has a strike rate of 88 compared to 71 of Border. In the tests Border has a slight edge but de Villiers's ODI superiority compensates for that since ODIs are much more important part of the game in de Villiers's era then they ever were while Border played.

 

[The Sean]

It's not that big of difference actually. de Villiers is clearly the better ODI batsman than Border since he averages about 12 more runs per match than Border and has has a strike rate of 88 compared to 71 of Border. In the tests Border has a slight edge but de Villiers's ODI superiority compensates for that since ODIs are much more important part of the game in de Villiers's era then they ever were while Border played.

You're taking the piss, yes?

 

[Teja.]

It's not that big of difference actually. de Villiers is clearly the better ODI batsman than Border since he averages about 12 more runs per match than Border and has has a strike rate of 88 compared to 71 of Border. In the tests Border has a slight edge but de Villiers's ODI superiority compensates for that since ODIs are much more important part of the game in de Villiers's era then they ever were while Border played.

Yes, that and I'm the direct heir to the British throne, smoked a Cigar when I was 9-and-a-half months old and Cameroon Diaz is my girlfriend.

 

[GraemeSmith]

Yes, that and I'm the direct heir to the British throne, smoked a Cigar when I was 9-and-a-half months old and Cameroon Diaz is my girlfriend.

Instead of making a sarcastic comment why don't you explain your dispute with my argument. Are you doubting the fact that de Villiers has way better ODI batting statistics than Border?

 

[GotSpin]

Instead of making a sarcastic comment why don't you explain your dispute with my argument. Are you doubting the fact that de Villiers has way better ODI batting statistics than Border?

Are you taking into account how the One day game has changed in 20 years...

 

[Teja.]

Instead of making a sarcastic comment why don't you explain your dispute with my argument. Are you doubting the fact that de Villiers has way better ODI batting statistics than Border?

I apologize for being a Test Cricket romantic who doesn't value ODI Cricket much, either way to be held in the same level as Border, what the younger namesake has to achieve is to play for 15+ years averaging over 55 in 150+ matches. I am not even bringing in the fact that AB was one of the best captains the game had, and the atlas for his team for a long period of time, also not taking into account that batting was more difficult in Senior's day.

 

[GraemeSmith]

Are you taking into account how the One day game has changed in 20 years...

Sure let's take that into account- During 1979-1994 when Allan Border played the Avg of all batsman who scored more than 1000 runs was 28.51 and the average strike rate was 72.66 Aggregate/overall records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com . Allan Border had an average of 30.62 and a Strike rate of 71.42. That means Border's Average was only 2.11 runs higher and his strike was 1.24 lower than a typical batsman who played during his era.

In case de Villiers http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=matches;qualmin1=1000;qualval1=runs;spanmax3=27+Feb+2010;spanmin3=2+Feb+2005;spanval3=span;template=results;type=aggregate in his time the Avg of all batsman who scored more than 1000 runs is 30.19 and the average strike rate is 83.5. Compare that to de Villiers who has a batting average of 42.18 and a strike rate of 88.92, which puts his average as 11.99 runs more and strike rate at 5.42 more than a typical batsman who's played between 2005-2010.

So even accounting for the changes in the game it's clear that Border was only a slightly above average batsman of his time in terms of batting average (+2.11) and slightly below an average batsman in terms of strike rate(-1.24). Whereas de Villiers is significantly better than an average batsman of his time both in terms of batting average and strike rate by 11.99 and 5.43 respectively. de Villiers is clearly the better odi batsman.

 

[GraemeSmith]

I apologize for being a Test Cricket romantic who doesn't value ODI Cricket much, either way to be held in the same level as Border, what the younger namesake has to achieve is to play for 15+ years averaging over 55 in 150+ matches. I am not even bringing in the fact that AB was one of the best captains the game had, and the atlas for his team for a long period of time, also not taking into account that batting was more difficult in Senior's day.

I'm not saying de Villiers is a better batsman than Border. de Villers is a better ODI batsman and Border was a better test batsman. They are not that far apart as batsmen and I was arguing Burgey's post which said that even mentioning Border and de Villiers in the same breath is a travesty. Border's captaincy has tons of dark spots. It was under him that that the Australians perfected the art of sledging. The strategy of bullying and intimidation used by the modern day Australian team was derived from Border and his minions which is nothing to be proud of. de Villiers on the other hand is a really nice guy and a gentleman who plays a clean game for the most part,

 

[Jono]

Allan Border has a medal named after him FFS, he's clearly not underrated.

Legend though, some of the stories of him as captian are so good. What a hard grumpy man. Champion.

 

[Furball]

Should be more AB love on here..

Got a terrific record against the Windies doesn't he?

 

[Furball]

Fair Enough.

Though he also averages 39.46 agaisnt west indies.Which is decent but average i would say.

Averaged 46 against them in the 1980s.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

 

[Cevno]

Averaged 46 against them in the 1980s.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

I guess when considering well rounded career records ,the whole career has to be considered.
Though i have to say in the eighties he was mighty impressive.

For me he is the joint third best australian batsmen ever along with Ricky Ponting after Greg Chappell and Don Bradman.

 

[Burgey]

It's not that big of difference actually. de Villiers is clearly the better ODI batsman than Border since he averages about 12 more runs per match than Border and has has a strike rate of 88 compared to 71 of Border. In the tests Border has a slight edge but de Villiers's ODI superiority compensates for that since ODIs are much more important part of the game in de Villiers's era then they ever were while Border played.

de Villiers plays in a dinner suit. Good luck to him and all, he's good to watch and I like his strokeplay too. Appearances can be deceptive I grant you, but he's a long way from Border as a Test player imo.

de Villier's ODI stats aren't massively better than Border's given the eras they played in and the style of game that was played back then. Again though, that's just my view on it. Certainly his value as a potential wicket keeper as well as a top player make his value to SA immense. Suppose we can agree to disagree on the ODI component.

When it comes to Tests, I'll have Allan Border to bat for my life over any other batsman I have ever watched play the game in 35 odd years of doing so. I admit to being biased, he's a hero of mine (probably the cricketing hero of mine tbh).

Of course, that's hardly a criteria to enjoying watching someone, or even necessarily to rating them. But Christ he was hard. Not hard as in sledged the crap out of people (that's not hardness in any event), but he never gave a millimetre, never took a thing for granted. He walked out to bat in the darkest era Australia has ever had, and you just thought we were a chance - maybe not of winning, but of at least drawing matches against vastly superior opposition. He scored runs pretty much everywhere, against everyone. The bloke was a great, great player.

He was a colossus - a 5 feet, 7 inch tall colossus. Marry me, Al.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Pretty much unfair on de Villiers to compare him to Border right at this moment.

 

[Teja.]

de Villiers plays in a dinner suit. Good luck to him and all, he's good to watch and I like his strokeplay too. Appearances can be deceptive I grant you, but he's a long way from Border as a Test player imo.

de Villier's ODI stats aren't massively better than Border's given the eras they played in and the style of game that was played back then. Again though, that's just my view on it. Certainly his value as a potential wicket keeper as well as a top player make his value to SA immense. Suppose we can agree to disagree on the ODI component.

When it comes to Tests, I'll have Allan Border to bat for my life over any other batsman I have ever watched play the game in 35 odd years of doing so. I admit to being biased, he's a hero of mine (probably the cricketing hero of mine tbh).

Of course, that's hardly a criteria to enjoying watching someone, or even necessarily to rating them. But Christ he was hard. Not hard as in sledged the crap out of people (that's not hardness in any event), but he never gave a millimetre, never took a thing for granted. He walked out to bat in the darkest era Australia has ever had, and you just thought we were a chance - maybe not of winning, but of at least drawing matches against vastly superior opposition. He scored runs pretty much everywhere, against everyone. The bloke was a great, great player.

He was a colossus - a 5 feet, 7 inch tall colossus. Marry me, Al.

This. I would probably choose Miandad over Border to bat for my life though.

 

[vcs]

Isn't there an iconic image of Border throwing a cricket ball to the floor in disgust when West Indies beat Australia by 1 run in '93? Back then, the only way to follow Test cricket not involving India was the news and a weekly magazine called "Sportstar". I vaguely remember reading something like that.

 

[Burgey]

Isn't there an iconic image of Border throwing a cricket ball to the floor in disgust when West Indies beat Australia by 1 run in '93? Back then, the only way to follow Test cricket not involving India was the news and a weekly magazine called "Sportstar". I vaguely remember reading something like that.

Yeah, he had a "worry ball" he used to shine up. When McDermott was out he apparently threw it so hard into the floor that it bounced up and put a hole in the roof.

 

[Burgey]

This. I would probably choose Miandad over Border to bat for my life though.

Yeah fair enough. Didn't see enough of Javed in tests, given the lack of OS coverage her back then. Great player though, of that there's no doubt.

 

[vcs]

Yeah, he had a "worry ball" he used to shine up. When McDermott was out he apparently threw it so hard into the floor that it bounced up and put a hole in the roof.

Cheers. It's funny the things you can recollect vaguely from 18 years back while forgetting some important thing that happened yesterday.

 

[Burgey]

Cheers. It's funny the things you can recollect vaguely from 18 years back while forgetting some important thing that happened yesterday.

Haha. Tell me about it! Happens to me all the bloody time..