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*Official* Australia in New Zealand

T

trapol

U19 12th Man
Sorry explain to me -

What part of a 21 year olds career to date (Test average of over 50, 2 Test centuries and 4 scores past 50 in total from 12 completed innings PLUS a First class batting average just shy of 60 in an openly accepted tough first class comp) makes people say he's not up to it?

National pride aside why any kiwi thinks this guy isnt up to it just dumbfounds me. We would kill for a Phillip Hughes!!!!

As for the comparison with Williamson. How can you? Granted this kid is only 19 and hopefully a future star. But he averages 49 in another openly accepted Weak competition and has not even played at the international level.

Some peoples attitude towards Williamson on these boards are making me hate this kid and its none of his doing. I hope he turns out to be a genuine superstar but the way people go ga ga over him when all he's done is play well against mediocre bowlers is annoying. As i say i hope he is a genius but what happens if he fails at the Test Match level in his first few tests? What will you all say then?
 
Top_Cat

Top_Cat

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trapol said:
Sorry explain to me -

What part of a 21 year olds career to date (Test average of over 50, 2 Test centuries and 4 scores past 50 in total from 12 completed innings PLUS a First class batting average just shy of 60 in an openly accepted tough first class comp) makes people say he's not up to it?
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Actually watching him bat. Has talent in abundance but, if not for injury, (rightly) wouldn't be in the side. Stupidly talented he is, in form he is not.
 
thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
trapol said:
But he averages 49 in another openly accepted Weak competition
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DWTA

(a) Certainly arguable but I don't even think the NZ FC competition is *that* weak. Only having 6 FC sides means the talent is reasonably well concentrated (especially if Black Caps are available) and given our turnover of players you probably find 50%+ of the players are ex-internationals at any given time

(b) Again it's arguable whether this is *still* true, but the NZ domestic comp has traditionally been very hard for batting. Blokes have been picked for NZ averaging 20s and 30s and done better at international level than domestic level. It's hard to say exactly how good 49 is these days because run-scoring seems to be becoming a bit easier, but up until very recently averaging 49 in NZ domestic cricket was pretty phenomenal.
 
JBH001

JBH001

International Regular
Not convinced by Hughes. Think "over-rated meh" about sums him up. It will be good to see Watto back for the second test.
 
Top_Cat

Top_Cat

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thierry henry said:
(a) Certainly arguable but I don't even think the NZ FC competition is *that* weak. Only having 6 FC sides means the talent is reasonably well concentrated (especially if Black Caps are available) and given our turnover of players you probably find 50%+ of the players are ex-internationals at any given time
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Good point, really, considering the Aussie internationals barely played any FC cricket this year. That said, Hughes did score two hundreds against Victoria.
 
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thierry henry

thierry henry

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
Good point, really, considering the Aussie internationals barely played any FC cricket this year. That said, Hughes did score two hundreds against Victoria.
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yeah well tbh it's probably the same in NZ

In theory, if you put down the full-strength line-ups for each of the 6 NZ provinces you'd find a very high % of ex-internationals (not to say fringe NZ internationals from 5-10 years ago are gun, but hopefully they're at least near FC standard).

However in reality when all the Black Caps are away you do start to get some pretty dodgy line-ups in FC cricket.

Regardless, the better point was the second one- up until very recently pretty much NO-ONE scored runs in NZ domestic cricket, so to say it's easy to do so is pretty ludicrous.
 
Teja.

Teja.

Global Moderator
wfdu_ben91 said:
Did what Sehwag does in the subcontient, but in seam friendly conditions. Hughes FTW.

Why can't we just drop Katich down to 6, open with Watto and Hughesy and kickout North? :sadwalk:
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In one innings? It's not like Sehwag has never done well in seam friendly conditions. Comparing a proven great with 76 caps to a good new comer is ludicrous IMO.
 
Howsie

Howsie

International Captain
thierry henry said:
DWTA

(a) Certainly arguable but I don't even think the NZ FC competition is *that* weak. Only having 6 FC sides means the talent is reasonably well concentrated (especially if Black Caps are available) and given our turnover of players you probably find 50%+ of the players are ex-internationals at any given time

(b) Again it's arguable whether this is *still* true, but the NZ domestic comp has traditionally been very hard for batting. Blokes have been picked for NZ averaging 20s and 30s and done better at international level than domestic level. It's hard to say exactly how good 49 is these days because run-scoring seems to be becoming a bit easier, but up until very recently averaging 49 in NZ domestic cricket was pretty phenomenal.
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Just look at it this way, Williamson averages 49 at 19. There isn't a batsmen within five years of him that comes anywhere near that average, your Guptill's, Watling's and co all average around 30 in our domestic competition. So far Taylor and Ryder have had pretty good test careers and even they don't match up to the numbers he's put up so far in domestic cricket.

Although we also have guys like Sincliar and Fulton who have done fairly well there whole careers in FC cricket and really haven't done a lot in test cricket, but so do many other countries I spose.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Cricket: McCullum could give up the gloves - Sport - NZ Herald News

****

If McCullum were to give up keeping (which would be a pityfully stupid move), He'd have to bat either as an opener or a number 3, as 4,5 and 6 are all currently taken. Which wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing, because I'd bet that he'd make a better fist of it than anyone else in the country right now. But he's such a good keeper it would be a huge loss to the side.
 
Howsie

Howsie

International Captain
JBH001 said:
Not convinced by Hughes. Think "over-rated meh" about sums him up. It will be good to see Watto back for the second test.
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That's pretty much me. I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's obviously very talented and has so far put up a pretty fantastic record, but from the first time I watched him bat (the first ashes test) all the way till today, he just hasn't really impressed me. He doesn't seem to know where his off-stump is, and he can't play the short ball. When Brent Arnel can get you fending away balls at your body on a 5th day pitch you might have some problems.
 
Bahnz

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Howsie said:
Just look at it this way, Williamson averages 49 at 19. There isn't a batsmen within five years of him that comes anywhere near that average, your Guptill's, Watling's and co all average around 30 in our domestic competition. So far Taylor and Ryder have had pretty good test careers and even they don't match up to the numbers he's put up so far in domestic cricket.

Although we also have guys like Sincliar and Fulton who have done fairly well there whole careers in FC cricket and really haven't done a lot in test cricket, but so do many other countries I spose.
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Jesse actually averaged about 50+ at Kane's age. Over the next few seasons, discipline, injuries and some piss poor umpiring decisions (as far as Jesse tells it) pulled his average down to about 45. However, he's the only other batsman as far as I'm aware in the last 10 or 15 years to have such good numbers at a such a young age.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Bahnz said:
Cricket: McCullum could give up the gloves - Sport - NZ Herald News

****

If McCullum were to give up keeping (which would be a pityfully stupid move), He'd have to bat either as an opener or a number 3, as 4,5 and 6 are all currently taken. Which wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing, because I'd bet that he'd make a better fist of it than anyone else in the country right now. But he's such a good keeper it would be a huge loss to the side.
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His average of 35 is not quite good enough to be a specialist bat in the top six if that is his goal. He is not Kumar Sangakara
Also if he gives up keeping his replacement hopkins will average like 20 most likely.
So we will lose a batsman from the side like Guptil or Ingram to make way for McCullum in the top 6. Who could both average maybe 30-35 (Ingram is a maybe here) and gain a wicketkeeper who will average 20.
I see this as a net loss.

The only argument you can make for this - is if you believe that Hopkins will average more than Ingram.

I think he is welcome to have high hopes of being a batsman. But lets keep him with the gloves.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
My avatar is of McIntosh leaving the ball and getting bowled middle stump. However I was so impressed by his knock of 80 that if he can post another 50 in the next test I will put up a more complimentary avatar devoted to him.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
GGG said:
"Crowe said the humiliation that he and Ken Rutherford felt a that age when they failed stayed with them for a long time."

The aussie bowling line up of that era (Lillee and Thompson) and the windies for Rutherford (Holding, Marshall, Gardner) are light years ahead of this aussie bowling line up.
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This line up is still very good though.

If this wasnt Australia or South Africa (or other sides in the right conditions e.g. Murai at home) it would be an easier decision.
 
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