Career Averages that dont do justice

[SaeedAnwar]

Post players who's career averages dont do justice to their ability

Aravinda de Silva

Test average: 42.97, he should be some where around the 50 average mark with his ability in tests.

His ODI average is only 34.90, he should be around the 40-42 mark in ODI's

Aravinda de Silva | Sri Lanka Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

 

[King Pietersen]

WG Grace's Test average.
Ravi Bopara's test average

 

[Richard]

Almost no Test career average does a career justice, because very few players have remained broadly the same all career. Even those not-all-that-common cases who were Test-standard from first game to last (ie, no premature elevation, no early period of struggling to make the step up, no serious mid-career trough, and no downtime at the end) usually had some periods where they were really good and some where they were less good.

Broadly speaking, someone who talks about "an average doesn't do him justice" in reality means either "he underperformed" (broadly I think that's the case with Aravinda) or "he looked better than he was" (there are a great many of these).

In the case of WG Grace, of course, his career First-Class average doesn't begin to demonstrate to a modern, naive audience how dominant he was. His Test average, to those who know their stuff, is pretty much worthless, not merely because Test cricket in his day was not of extraordinary importance, but because he played most of his Test career at an age past what is now normal retirement age. He, however, is an exception - a player who played a different game whose fame is so great that many who understand nothing of the game he played still know his name.

 

[zaremba]

Players from pre-WW1 tended to have lower batting and bowling averages across the board. WG Grace is a particularly good example, and partly for the reasons given by Richard. I also suspect that some bowlers of that sort of era (Barnes, Lohmann etc) are quite seriously flattered by their averages, at least when those averages are seen through modern eyes.

Of recent times, Martin Crowe is one who stands out. A batting average in the mid-40s doesn't adequately reflect what a magnificent player he was. Although I see the force in Richard's point that this must mean either that Crowe underperformed or that he wasn't as good as he looked.

 

[Richard]

Players from pre-WW1 tended to have lower batting and bowling averages across the board. WG Grace is a particularly good example, and partly for the reasons given by Richard. I also suspect that some bowlers of that sort of era (Barnes, Lohmann etc) are quite seriously flattered by their averages, at least when those averages are seen through modern eyes.

It's less a case of pre-WW1, and more of pre-1900, as I understand it. There was a big change in pitch-preparation capability in, in fact, the very turn-of-the-century year (the upping in scoring 1899-1900 was greater even than the change which took place in a two-year spurt from 2000 to 2002). There was no particularly significant difference in scoring, as I understand it, in, say, 1909 and 1924 - in fact, the Golden Age (1900-1913) was famous for the free-flowing amateur batsmanship which would simply not have been possible under conditions which had prevailed in the 19th-century.

It was 1930 when, once more, decks experienced a flattening-out. The cessation caused by WW2 then seemed to perk things up and when cricket resumed in the 1940s it was more recogniseable for what it had been in the '00s and '20s (and what little of the '10s survived the War).

Hence, I'm quite open to the suggestion that Lohmann's excellence is incomparable with excellence of modern bowlers - we honestly do not, to my mind, have a clue how good he might have been, IMO. He could've been in the Marshall-Imran-Donald-Lillee-Hadlee class; he could've been less than Dominic Cork or Alan Connolly. We just don't know. Barnes, however, is an entirely different matter - I've always maintained that there is enough evidence of Barnes being pre-eminent over any other bowler ever to have picked-up a ball, though it is almost certainly my greatest regret that he was never handled in such a way that would have allowed him to show such unequivocally.

Of recent times, Martin Crowe is one who stands out. A batting average in the mid-40s doesn't adequately reflect what a magnificent player he was. Although I see the force in Richard's point that this must mean either that Crowe underperformed or that he wasn't as good as he looked.

Crowe's case simply shows that a career average is a pretty meaningless thing. He was picked far too early and was ruined by injuries to his knees at a far younger age than most are. IIRR, he averaged about 54 for what still made-up the bulk of his career, which seems to do far more justice to what most seem to reckon was his capability.

 

[andyc]

Almost no Test career average does a career justice, because very few players have remained broadly the same all career. Even those not-all-that-common cases who were Test-standard from first game to last (ie, no premature elevation, no early period of struggling to make the step up, no serious mid-career trough, and no downtime at the end) usually had some periods where they were really good and some where they were less good.

That's why it's called an average though.

 

[Jarquis]

Flintoff is usually a name associated with this, isn't he?

 

[Sanz]

I find it funny that folks say that such and such stat don't justice, why so ? It is a record of what they scored on the field, this is what they were capable of and that is what they deserve. Not one less not one more.

 

[Migara]

Post players who's career averages dont do justice to their ability

Aravinda de Silva

Test average: 42.97, he should be some where around the 50 average mark with his ability in tests.

His ODI average is only 34.90, he should be around the 40-42 mark in ODI's

Aravinda de Silva | Sri Lanka Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

ODIs de SIlva used ultra aggressive approach. SR of 82 in an era where the vg SR was 68-70 was special. That made him to get out cheaply as well.

But post 1996, when de SIlva found support with batting, he averaged 50+ with the bat in tests

 

[Athlai]

Crowe or Mark Waugh.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Matthew Hayden - Should be slightly higher (53-54 instead of 50)
Kevin Pietersen - Should be allot higher (55-56 instead of 48-49)
Mahela Jayawardene - Should be allot lower (low 40's instead of mid 50's)
Mark Waugh - Should be higher (mid-high 40's instead of low 40's)
Mohammad Yousuf - Should be allot lower (mid-low 40's instead of mid 50's)
Virender Sehwag - Should be slightly lower (mid 40's, not 50+)
Michael Slater - Should be slightly higher (atleast in the mid 40's)
Michael Clarke - Should be slightly lower (not a 50+ average batsman imo)
AB de Villiers - Should be allot higher (Good enough to average 50+)
Dean Jones - Should be higher (On footage, his one of the best bats out of the 80s era .. deserves to average 50+)

 

[SaeedAnwar]

I find it funny that folks say that such and such stat don't justice, why so ? It is a record of what they scored on the field, this is what they were capable of and that is what they deserve. Not one less not one more.

so according to you Afridi deserves a batting average of 37 in tests

 

[Teja.]

so according to you Afridi deserves a batting average of 37 in tests

Yes,It's not like his dad owns cricinfo, he scored his runs, he gets an average.

I dunno why people think Sehwag's average should be lower, just because he scores so fast, he is so very consistent, atleast for the past 2 years.

 

[Athlai]

Matthew Hayden - Should be slightly higher (53-54 instead of 50)
Kevin Pietersen - Should be allot higher (55-56 instead of 48-49)
Mahela Jayawardene - Should be allot lower (low 40's instead of mid 50's)
Mark Waugh - Should be higher (mid-high 40's instead of low 40's)
Mohammad Yousuf - Should be allot lower (mid-low 40's instead of mid 50's)
Virender Sehwag - Should be slightly lower (mid 40's, not 50+)
Michael Slater - Should be slightly higher (atleast in the mid 40's)
Michael Clarke - Should be slightly lower (not a 50+ average batsman imo)
AB de Villiers - Should be allot higher (Good enough to average 50+)
Dean Jones - Should be higher (On footage, his one of the best bats out of the 80s era .. deserves to average 50+)

Hayden - probably not that high about right as it is
Pietersen - no way
Mahela - no way
Waugh - yeah
MoYo - yeah
Sehwag - no way
Slater - meh
Clarke - possibly
AB - he'll get there eventually

 

[Pothas]

Disagree on Clarke, think he is one hell of a good player these days and just as deserving as other players averaging around 50 these days.

 

[Streetwise]

Disagree on Clarke, think he is one hell of a good player these days and just as deserving as other players averaging around 50 these days.

Agree, Clarke has the style, temperment, technique and determination to become one of the batting greats.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Disagree on Clarke, think he is one hell of a good player these days and just as deserving as other players averaging around 50 these days.

Yeah, unfortunately he got that average coming in after Hayden, Ponting and Hussey had done all of the hard work.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah, unfortunately he got that average coming in after Hayden, Ponting and Hussey had done all of the hard work.

What? Hasn't his peak come in the last few years when Hayden has retired, and Ponting and Hussey have appeared to be mere mortals?

 

[Athlai]

Pre 08
Hayden 7742 @ 55.69
Ponting 7423 @ 64.54
Hussey 1934 @ 80.58
Clarke 1821 @ 46.69

Post 08
Clarke 2463 @ 55.97
Ponting 2385 @ 45.86
Hussey 1889 @ 38.55
Hayden 622 @ 32.73

Yep Clarke has been certainly benefitting a great deal from the others doing all the hard work.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

What? Hasn't his peak come in the last few years when Hayden has retired, and Ponting and Hussey have appeared to be mere mortals?

He was averaging 35 until he was brought back in the Australian side at it's peak in the Ashes 2006/07 and he got a few scores (after coming in at 4/300), which buffed his average up and it continued to buff up in the next few series he played where he came in after either 2 of Hayden, Ponting and Hussey had scored heavily.

By the time Hayden retired, Clarke was averaging 49 and almost touching 50. He then had a poor series in South Africa before having a good (but massively overrated - most people quote it as Clarke's coming of age series) series against England in England, but yet most people overlook the fact that all of England's bowlers have career bowling averages in the mid 30's.

His a good batsman, good enough to average mid-low 40's, but definately not 50+. I'm not sold yet, I think Watson looks more likely to become the next great Australian batsman, followed by Hughes.