Will West indies and Pakistan ever recover?

[WindieWeathers]

WW you contradict yourself... alot.

Regarding the thread, Windies will recover if recover means be somewhere around mid-table... To be fair our pace attack does seem to have very good potential, but the reality is that it's unlikely Edwards and Taylor will be fit together for an extended amount of time considering their history with injuries. If that did happen to come about there's definitely a chance of a recovery...

Our batting seems pretty short, with Brathwaite looking a good prospect but needing time. The likes of Nash and currently Deonarine are not test class, but at the same time must play due to the paucity of good Windies batsmen, wouldn't mind seeing more of Darren Bravo in ODI's, when I've seen him he looks very good.

Regarding the potential argument btw, being good at U19 level clearly has no bearing on international level as it does with any sport - Use tennis or football for an example - Monfils won three of the four junior grand-slams in a year at junior level and is yet to have any where near that impact in real... Jody Morris was always touted as the best of a young crop of english footballers, but again hasn't really proved anything... My point is, you can do all you like in U19 level but that doesn't necesserily dictate that you'll be good in the future.

The fact that you're claiming "Deonarine isn't test standard" after his brilliant 80 in his second innings against Australia recently is laughable!!, as we saw with his knock against Zim he's getting better and better everytime he plays, furthermore the bowling attack doesn't need to rely on Edwards at all, Holder is coming through, Gabriel is making a name for himself and so is Delorn Johnson, we only need one more decent bowler to go alongside Taylor and Roach, as for the batters, we've got plenty of potential in that department, Darren Bravo, Barath, Brathwaite, Kiaran Powelll and Kyle Corbin are all under 22 and are playing international and FC cricket, so your comment about "u19 level" isn't valid when it comes to them.

 

[Furball]

What does Deonarine's innings against Zimbabwe have to do with whether he is or isn't Test class?

 

[Jigga988]

The fact that you're claiming "Deonarine isn't test standard" after his brilliant 80 in his second innings against Australia recently is laughable!!, as we saw with his knock against Zim he's getting better and better everytime he plays, furthermore the bowling attack doesn't need to rely on Edwards at all, Holder is coming through, Gabriel is making a name for himself and so is Delorn Johnson, we only need one more decent bowler to go alongside Taylor and Roach, as for the batters, we've got plenty of potential in that department, Darren Bravo, Barath, Brathwaite, Kiaran Powelll and Kyle Corbin are all under 22 and are playing international and FC cricket, so your comment about "u19 level" isn't valid when it comes to them.

Don't see how you can possibly claim my comment on U19 level is wrong if these guys havn't done anything at international level which was precisely the argument... Barath has scored a century and that's pretty much it... Decent performances at regional level don't really prove one can hack it at international level - Morton, Smith etc.

Deonarine's technique is pretty awful tbh, yes it was a good knock against Australia, but he really doesn't look like a test class batsmen doesn't actually ever get on the front foot, decent knock against Zim also, but as mr. ginger furball said, Zim arn't a test side are they...? Anyways, I'm talking about batsman that will help improve the side and put us in a better position than we were previously Deonarine is not one of them.

 

[AaronK]

I have a feeling that things are gona get worst for pakistan

here is result of the inquiry committee

Top Pak players face fines, bans | Cricket News | Global | Cricinfo.com

I suppose getting rid of Malik and Navid shouldn't hurt pakistan but losing afridi and a captain like afridi should hurt them the most..

 

[Woodster]

Yeah i know the Aussies won the thing in the end because they were the best team, but when it came to individuals Brathwaite was by far the best batter going and Holder had the best figures of any bowler with his 5/19 against England, something even Hazlewood couldn't do, our domestic system might not be the strongest but it's certainly not the weakest either, it's all about ability at the end of the day and if our system can produce a Lara or a Chanderpaul what's stopping it from producing more world class talent? looking at Brathwaite and Holder it's abundantly clear that they will have very bright futures with WI, other nations can produce one gem every few years, all our gems just seem to be coming through at the same time right now which is why i believe we've got the best group around.

Yeah Hazlewood took a whole ONE WICKET more!!!, big deal!

Didn't Holder take a whole one wicket more by taking 5 wickets in an innings as averse to Hazlewood's 4-for!? Big Deal. My point was not necessarily a serious one, albeit factually correct.

 

[WindieWeathers]

What does Deonarine's innings against Zimbabwe have to do with whether he is or isn't Test class?

That was in reference to his batting ability, which is why mentioned it after i talked about his 80 in the tests against Australia.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Don't see how you can possibly claim my comment on U19 level is wrong if these guys havn't done anything at international level which was precisely the argument... Barath has scored a century and that's pretty much it... Decent performances at regional level don't really prove one can hack it at international level - Morton, Smith etc.

Deonarine's technique is pretty awful tbh, yes it was a good knock against Australia, but he really doesn't look like a test class batsmen doesn't actually ever get on the front foot, decent knock against Zim also, but as mr. ginger furball said, Zim arn't a test side are they...? Anyways, I'm talking about batsman that will help improve the side and put us in a better position than we were previously Deonarine is not one of them.

How can you compare the likes of Morton and Smith who are experienced at international level to the young players we've got coming through now? it doesn't make sense at all, you might not rate Deonarine but the fact is he's just turned 26 and there's still room for improvement, i believe he's a damn good stroke maker and has the potential to be another Sarwan, as for Barath, he's 19 for god sake what more do you want from him? you talk like there's plenty of 19 year old openers making 100 in Australia on their debut.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Didn't Holder take a whole one wicket more by taking 5 wickets in an innings as averse to Hazlewood's 4-for!? Big Deal. My point was not necessarily a serious one, albeit factually correct.

The difference is Holder's figures were the best in the whole competiton, which is why it's more significant .

 

[Woodster]

The difference is Holder's figures were the best in the whole competiton, which is why it's more significant .

Absolutely correct, as the 6-33 taken by Aftab Alam for Afghanistan is not better because ? He doesn't play for the West Indies perhaps! The significance now ?

 

[Jigga988]

How can you compare the likes of Morton and Smith who are experienced at international level to the young players we've got coming through now? it doesn't make sense at all, you might not rate Deonarine but the fact is he's just turned 26 and there's still room for improvement, i believe he's a damn good stroke maker and has the potential to be another Sarwan, as for Barath, he's 19 for god sake what more do you want from him? you talk like there's plenty of 19 year old openers making 100 in Australia on their debut.

I'm not criticising Barath, just said all he had done is score a century, meaning he hasn't exactly proved himself - don't get it twisted, I think the guy is extremely talented and could definitely have a successful career in the future, just for now he is currently unproven at International level...

Deonarine is not even close to the class of Sarwan, whom actually gets on the front foot, and actually has a half decent test record (though it should be far better) there could still be room for improvement in Deonarine, but currently I just think he is a solid performer at FC level and little else, I could be wrong though... Oh, and btw, the comparison to Smith and Morton was an attempt to reach that point - solid FC performers but found wanting at International level...

 

[WindieWeathers]

Absolutely correct, as the 6-33 taken by Aftab Alam for Afghanistan is not better because ? He doesn't play for the West Indies perhaps! The significance now ?

And who was that against? Holder did it against ENGLAND!!, one of the top sides in the whole competition, and tbh what has that got to do with Hazlewood?

Btw can you provide a link for those figures?!!

 

[WindieWeathers]

I'm not criticising Barath, just said all he had done is score a century, meaning he hasn't exactly proved himself - don't get it twisted, I think the guy is extremely talented and could definitely have a successful career in the future, just for now he is currently unproven at International level...

Deonarine is not even close to the class of Sarwan, whom actually gets on the front foot, and actually has a half decent test record (though it should be far better) there could still be room for improvement in Deonarine, but currently I just think he is a solid performer at FC level and little else, I could be wrong though... Oh, and btw, the comparison to Smith and Morton was an attempt to reach that point - solid FC performers but found wanting at International level...

Sorry but you're views are both negative and naive imo, how is Deonarine "just a solid Fc performer" after his knock in Australia? the guy is just getting his international career going, the more he plays the better he's likely to get, btw i never said he was as good as Sarwan i said he "could be as good" as Sarwan, at the end of the day i don't give a damn whether he's playing on the front foot or not it's all about how many runs the man is getting on the board and right now he's getting runs for us and is a very decent player to have in our middle order.

 

[roseboy64]

What did you mean then? that we shouldn't drop them after years of poor form then? you're confusing yourself Roseboy!! .

Basically that proven players deserve an extended period to return to form. If lasts more than 1 year though, perfectly fine to drop them.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Basically that proven players deserve an extended period to return to form. If lasts more than 1 year though, perfectly fine to drop them.

You did say "years" though Roseboy so i think i had every right to question it.

 

[Howsie]

The fact that you're claiming "Deonarine isn't test standard" after his brilliant 80 in his second innings against Australia recently is laughable!!, as we saw with his knock against Zim he's getting better and better everytime he plays, furthermore the bowling attack doesn't need to rely on Edwards at all, Holder is coming through, Gabriel is making a name for himself and so is Delorn Johnson, we only need one more decent bowler to go alongside Taylor and Roach, as for the batters, we've got plenty of potential in that department, Darren Bravo, Barath, Brathwaite, Kiaran Powelll and Kyle Corbin are all under 22 and are playing international and FC cricket, so your comment about "u19 level" isn't valid when it comes to them.

Would you call Aaron Redmond test class after his 83 in Australia the season before, of course not. One knock doesn't prove anything.

As for some of these names, Delorn Johnson is 21 and has only picked up one first-class wicket, Shannon Gabriel is 21 and he's only picked up four first-class wickets, Jason Holder's 18 and he's only picked up two. AFAIC these guys should be at least two seasons off playing international cricket, probably three unless they pick up a bucket load of wickets.

As for the batsmen, except for Adrian Barath the batting records are average to poor. Bravo's and Powell's record are nothing to write home about, and Kyle Corbin averages mid 20's. Potential means nothing if you're not putting up the results, someone like Powell who looked like a machine in the 2008 under 19 world cup should only really be rated on what he's done in FC cricket now because some of the bowling he faced in that tournament was very, very average.

 

[Howsie]

Sorry but you're views are both negative and naive imo, how is Deonarine "just a solid Fc performer" after his knock in Australia? the guy is just getting his international career going, the more he plays the better he's likely to get, btw i never said he was as good as Sarwan i said he "could be as good" as Sarwan, at the end of the day i don't give a damn whether he's playing on the front foot or not it's all about how many runs the man is getting on the board and right now he's getting runs for us and is a very decent player to have in our middle order.

His other knocks in Australia, 19, 19, 23, 53, 4. Yeah, international class batsmen right there

 

[WindieWeathers]

Would you call Aaron Redmond test class after his 83 in Australia the season before, of course not. One knock doesn't prove anything.

As for some of these names, Delorn Johnson is 21 and has only picked up one first-class wicket, Shannon Gabriel is 21 and he's only picked up four first-class wickets, Jason Holder's 18 and he's only picked up two. AFAIC these guys should be at least two seasons off playing international cricket, probably three unless they pick up a bucket load of wickets.

As for the batsmen, except for Adrian Barath the batting records are average to poor. Bravo's and Powell's record are nothing to write home about, and Kyle Corbin averages mid 20's. Potential means nothing if you're not putting up the results, someone like Powell who looked like a machine in the 2008 under 19 world cup should only really be rated on what he's done in FC cricket now because some of the bowling he faced in that tournament was very, very average.

The man is just STARTING his international career now, after being in and out he's finally getting a run so how on earth is he meant to prove that he's "test quality"? by not playing? and i've mentioned Gabriel, Holder and Johnson as POTENTIAL STARS of the future, they have all the talent and it's just about getting experience, Roach wasn't pulling up many trees in FC cricket before he got picked to face Bangledash either but look at him now?!! you talked about how many wickets those guys have gotten but did it ever occur to you that Holder and Johnson has only played a few FC games thus far? and Gabriel i think has played two too, so counting their wicket tally is a little silly right now, same goas for Kyle Corbin who only played three FC games this season due to injury,

Clearly you're forming your opinion on just stats alone, unlike you i've actually seen most of these guys play which is why i rate them so highly.

 

[WindieWeathers]

His other knocks in Australia, 19, 19, 23, 53, 4. Yeah, international class batsmen right there

So he got an 80 in the tests and 53 in the ODI's IN AUSTRALIA in what was he's first proper chance for WI, yeah he obviously "failed" of course!! .

 

[Howsie]

The man is just STARTING his international career now, after being in and out he's finally getting a run so how on earth is he meant to prove that he's "test quality"? by not playing? and i've mentioned Gabriel, Holder and Johnson as POTENTIAL STARS of the future, they have all the talent and it's just about getting experience, Roach wasn't pulling up many trees in FC cricket before he got picked to face Bangledash either but look at him now?!! you talked about how many wickets those guys have gotten but did it ever occur to you that Holder and Johnson has only played a few FC games thus far? and Gabriel i think has played two too, so counting their wicket tally is a little silly right now, same goas for Kyle Corbin who only played three FC games this season due to injury,

Clearly you're forming your opinion on just stats alone, unlike you i've actually seen most of these guys play which is why i rate them so highly.

And saying you don't rely on Fidel Edwards because your've got these guys coming through is silly because they haven't done anything.

 

[Howsie]

So he got an 80 in the tests and 53 in the ODI's IN AUSTRALIA in what was he's first proper chance for WI, yeah he obviously "failed" of course!! .

Well he did average 24 in the one day series.....