Will West indies and Pakistan ever recover?

[SaeedAnwar]

West Indies has been a terrible side since the early 90's and pakistani team has been in terrible form since 2003 world cup, will these two sides ever recover and once again be top sides in the world??

 

[Pratters]

Pakistan had the talent to be the top side in the 90s but the politics meant they never were. Windies are rising again but the peak is a far way off. India, South Africa, Australia and England - the big four will remain exactly that for cricket's near future IMO.

 

[Faisal1985]

Pak will rise again.....Inshallah.....

what can i do, i am a believer.

 

[Richard]

Pakistan as a country has considerable problems at the present time and as the Zimbabwe case shows, cricket can only resist problems in the country at large for so long. Right now, Pakistan cricket's troubles are to a fair extent out of the hands of anyone with control of cricket.

West Indies seem to be on the way up after being, by-and-large, utterly diabolical from 2001/02 to 2007. Their recovery since 2007/08, however, is still in its infancy and has been disrupted severely by problems not directly related to the calibre of player available.

 

[WindieWeathers]

West Indies have the best bunch of young players of any nation coming through the ranks right now IMO, once they mature there's a decent chance we could return to the top end of world cricket, especially when you consider that many of the top sides best players will have retired by then, but it's gonna take time and a bit of luck, i'm confident it will happen though.

 

[SaeedAnwar]

Pakistan as a country has considerable problems at the present time and as the Zimbabwe case shows, cricket can only resist problems in the country at large for so long. Right now, Pakistan cricket's troubles are to a fair extent out of the hands of anyone with control of cricket.

West Indies seem to be on the way up after being, by-and-large, utterly diabolical from 2001/02 to 2007. Their recovery since 2007/08, however, is still in its infancy and has been disrupted severely by problems not directly related to the calibre of player available.

even between 1996-2001, west indies were pretty bad form

 

[Richard]

1996? Not sure about that. Between 1997/98 and 2001 they were generally very polarised - still near-invincible at home (only South Africa beat them in that time period) they could simply not take a trick away (lost 18 out of 22, including 10 in a row at the start of the period).

Between 1986/87 and 1997 West Indies were on the slow and inexorable slope downwards, but only in 1997/98 did disaster really begin to strike. But between 2001/02 they won just 5 out of 58, losing 38 (and in truth that 38 could easily have been 43 but for rain and freak instances like Dwayne Smith scoring Test centuries). Of their 10 convincing draws, 3 came at the ARG, along with 1 of the 5 victories which was a dead-rubber and another real freakish circumstance. The 4 live-match victories were all at home as well BTW - they only twice looked even remotely likely to win away Tests, and on both occasions their oppo (India in 2002/03, Pakistan in 2006/07) ultimately saved the matches with ease.

No-one should underestimate just how bad West Indies were 2001/02-2007. (Those results exclude Bangladesh and Zimbabwe games, obviously.)

 

[Woodster]

West Indies have the best bunch of young players of any nation coming through the ranks right now IMO, once they mature there's a decent chance we could return to the top end of world cricket, especially when you consider that many of the top sides best players will have retired by then, but it's gonna take time and a bit of luck, i'm confident it will happen though.

I agree that there is some good young talent coming out of the WI at the moment, not sure I would necessarily agree they have better quality youngsters coming through than some of the other sides. The likes of Barath, Roach, etc have already shown potential in international cricket, but by and large impressing in domestic cricket in the Caribbean, does not go hand in hand with converting that onto the highest level.

Would also suggest there may be a better quality of player that will not get near the Aussie side for a few years yet, due to the strength in depth (a couple of other nations too). Kemar Roach looks a real player though.

As regards the initial question, yes I believe if both nations can somehow overcome external problems, there is too much talent around for these sides not to come good again.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I agree that there is some good young talent coming out of the WI at the moment, not sure I would necessarily agree they have better quality youngsters coming through than some of the other sides. The likes of Barath, Roach, etc have already shown potential in international cricket, but by and large impressing in domestic cricket in the Caribbean, does not go hand in hand with converting that onto the highest level.

Would also suggest there may be a better quality of player that will not get near the Aussie side for a few years yet, due to the strength in depth (a couple of other nations too). Kemar Roach looks a real player though.

As regards the initial question, yes I believe if both nations can somehow overcome external problems, there is too much talent around for these sides not to come good again.

Our players are starting to show themselves right now in international cricket, domestic cricket and at u19 level for the Windies which is why i'm very confident that we've got the best bunch, Barath, Roach, Pollard are all under 23, Jason Holder, Kraigg Brathwaite, Yannic Cariah and Shane Dowrich were star players in the recent u19's world cup, Darren Bravo also has international experience, those are just a few i've named amoungst others, it's all good talking about what "might" be emerging for other nations but i'd rather work with real names, i'd be very surprised if other nations have a better group than ours, a player like Brathwaite for example looks like he could seriously be in the Lara mold, players like that don't come around very often.

 

[Howsie]

Our players are starting to show themselves right now in international cricket, domestic cricket and at u19 level for the Windies which is why i'm very confident that we've got the best bunch, Barath, Roach, Pollard are all under 23, Jason Holder, Kraigg Brathwaite, Yannic Cariah and Shane Dowrich were star players in the recent u19's world cup, Darren Bravo also has international experience, those are just a few i've named amoungst others, it's all good talking about what "might" be emerging for other nations but i'd rather work with real names, i'd be very surprised if other nations have a better group than ours, a player like Brathwaite for example looks like he could seriously be in the Lara mold, players like that don't come around very often.

Australia's youngsters > West Indies youngsters tbh.

 

[Woodster]

Our players are starting to show themselves right now in international cricket, domestic cricket and at u19 level for the Windies which is why i'm very confident that we've got the best bunch, Barath, Roach, Pollard are all under 23, Jason Holder, Kraigg Brathwaite, Yannic Cariah and Shane Dowrich were star players in the recent u19's world cup, Darren Bravo also has international experience, those are just a few i've named amoungst others, it's all good talking about what "might" be emerging for other nations but i'd rather work with real names, i'd be very surprised if other nations have a better group than ours, a player like Brathwaite for example looks like he could seriously be in the Lara mold, players like that don't come around very often.

I don't disagree there is very good potential there, but I'm sure there are several Australians (who incidentally are Under 19 World Champions) that have performed to a similar level in a much tougher and more competitive environment.

Barath, Roach and Pollard have all demonstrated in patches they have potential, no doubt in that, but WI are more likely to expose younger players to international cricket sooner than some of the more accomplished nations, due to their perplexing selection system. There is less quality in the starting Test XI so there are always calls to throw another youngster in.

For example Josh Hazlewood looks a very handy bowler for Australia but probably will not get a chance for some time yet, so he can establish his own game in State cricket. If he was West Indian he would more than likely have represented WI already and no doubt looked impressive. What will happen when Barath and Roach endure a troublesome patch ? An imminent return to domestic cricket that is not necessarily of a strong enough standard to help them develop.

Your star performers in the Under 19 World Cup is, for me, a slight exaggeration, star players for WI maybe, but not necessarily of the tournament.

I appreciate your optimistic for the future of WI cricket, and thats great. But these 'real' names you talk about have performed in a below top level domestic cricket and in some under 19 cricket. I presume the stats of under 19 players becoming top international players will not make good reading for you,

 

[TT Boy]

Windies whole U19 campaign was built on Brathwaite and Holder. Australia had four or more cricketers who look like they will have international futures, Pakistan a plethora and the same for India. New Zealand look like they have a few talented young cricketers as well, as do England and South Africa. West Indies were nothing special, apart from those two aforementioned cricketers.

 

[Richard]

Pakistan and India always look like they have a plethora of young cricketers who'll make it. Some do, some don't. But it isn't remotely unusual for those two sides, plus Bangladesh, to look the best at U19 level, and nothing should be read from it.

 

[morgieb]

Pakistan are just massively under-achieving, still reckon they'll recover. West Indies are improving, but are still pretty poor.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Australia's youngsters > West Indies youngsters tbh.

Name them?!!!

 

[WindieWeathers]

Windies whole U19 campaign was built on Brathwaite and Holder. Australia had four or more cricketers who look like they will have international futures, Pakistan a plethora and the same for India. New Zealand look like they have a few talented young cricketers as well, as do England and South Africa. West Indies were nothing special, apart from those two aforementioned cricketers.

Shane Dowich was also one of the top run getters in the whole competition and he's a wicket keeper, so that's three to go along with Darren Bravo, Adrian Barath, Kemar Roach, Delon Johnson etc, also Yannic Cariah took wickets and got himself a 100 for the u19's in the world cup so he's another one to watch, i could name at least 15 or more who've got a very good chance of making test cricket for us, with the Aussies the only decent one i saw was Hazlewood to be honest.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I don't disagree there is very good potential there, but I'm sure there are several Australians (who incidentally are Under 19 World Champions) that have performed to a similar level in a much tougher and more competitive environment.

Barath, Roach and Pollard have all demonstrated in patches they have potential, no doubt in that, but WI are more likely to expose younger players to international cricket sooner than some of the more accomplished nations, due to their perplexing selection system. There is less quality in the starting Test XI so there are always calls to throw another youngster in.

For example Josh Hazlewood looks a very handy bowler for Australia but probably will not get a chance for some time yet, so he can establish his own game in State cricket. If he was West Indian he would more than likely have represented WI already and no doubt looked impressive. What will happen when Barath and Roach endure a troublesome patch ? An imminent return to domestic cricket that is not necessarily of a strong enough standard to help them develop.

Your star performers in the Under 19 World Cup is, for me, a slight exaggeration, star players for WI maybe, but not necessarily of the tournament.

I appreciate your optimistic for the future of WI cricket, and thats great. But these 'real' names you talk about have performed in a below top level domestic cricket and in some under 19 cricket. I presume the stats of under 19 players becoming top international players will not make good reading for you,

Yeah i know the Aussies won the thing in the end because they were the best team, but when it came to individuals Brathwaite was by far the best batter going and Holder had the best figures of any bowler with his 5/19 against England, something even Hazlewood couldn't do, our domestic system might not be the strongest but it's certainly not the weakest either, it's all about ability at the end of the day and if our system can produce a Lara or a Chanderpaul what's stopping it from producing more world class talent? looking at Brathwaite and Holder it's abundantly clear that they will have very bright futures with WI, other nations can produce one gem every few years, all our gems just seem to be coming through at the same time right now which is why i believe we've got the best group around.

 

[Howsie]

Shane Dowich was also one of the top run getters in the whole competition and he's a wicket keeper, so that's three to go along with Darren Bravo, Adrian Barath, Kemar Roach, Delon Johnson etc, also Yannic Cariah took wickets and got himself a 100 for the u19's in the world cup so he's another one to watch, i could name at least 15 or more who've got a very good chance of making test cricket for us, with the Aussies the only decent one i saw was Hazlewood to be honest.

Name them?!!!

Phillip Hughes
Steven Smith
Josh Hazlewood
Mitchell Marsh
Mitchell Starc
Usman Khawaja
Alister McDermott

There's probably a few more also.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Phillip Hughes
Steven Smith
Josh Hazlewood
Mitchell Marsh
Mitchell Starc
Usman Khawaja
Alister McDermott

There's probably a few more also.

That's not even half of what we've got coming through!! , decent list but none of them are better than the likes of Barath, Roach, Pollard, Brathwaite, Holder imo

 

[Athlai]

Haha yeah they are WW.