*Official* South Africa in India

[Sir Alex]

I've occasionally wondered about all that, but wouldn't claim to know enough about India cricket to comment. In recent years we've seen R Singh, Sreesanth, Munaf Patel & now Sharma and all but the last one have come & gone. Singh in particular looked good in England a couple of years ago, so what went wrong?

Sreesanth is definitely quality.He will peak in about a year or 2 and will perform better than Zaheer in the long run.

 

[pasag]

Best thing for Ishant and India would be a stint in county cricket or something similar, not another 1000 ODIs and Twenty20s.

 

[Pratters]

I think Ishant will do just fine. Dhoni is intelligent and will persist with him giving him temporary breaks without allowing him to break down. Or at least I hope so.

 

[Uppercut]

Anywhere I can watch some highlights?

Was there a big crowd in?

Cricket365 | Cricket News should have them up in a bit.

 

[Sir Alex]

Best thing for Ishant and India would be a stint in county cricket or something similar, not another 1000 ODIs and Twenty20s.

100% agreed.It will bring in him a bit of consistency and discipline he is now lacking. A drop from the Int team won't hurt asit would fuel his motivation.

 

[Uppercut]

RP Singh is okay in conditions abroad but a failure in subcontinental conditions so far.

Had a decent tour of England two and a half years ago (no better than decent really) and did well-ish against Bangladesh. That's all really. He has a test economy rate of 4.02. He's just a bad bowler.

Ishant looks done. It's not even about a lack of experience or practice, he's just bowling 10mph slower than he was a couple of years back. Needs a long break to work himself out I reckon.

 

[Manee]

What's the point? One more pacer picked, found wanting, then dropped? They instead need to go back to ones who have been dropped, and stick to them, and maybe, by a long shot, Vinay Kumar. Long ago, on this board, you said that RP Singh will play for India, and he didn't last long. In fact, they still haven't found a valid replacement for Irfan Pathan, and it hasn't helped at all.

Tyagi should wait in line, and has a lot to learn- pace, control, stepping over, and of course, fielding. In the interests of the team, we'd prefer to see just four or five pacers (including two capable batsmen) over a period of five years, with no permanent changes under any circumstances, and no place for Tyagi until four years from now.

We should pick players based upon their domestic performances over more than one season - there is no need to stick to flawed selections. The flaw with RP Singh and Sreesanth is that they have been living off one FC season, which was long ago for both of them. RP Singh got a whole season in this year, which is valuable and he showed improvement throughout the season, originally taking wickets at 40 and it going down nearer to 30. A few seasons of long overs are priceless for a bowler's development, just ask Zaheer. He got three long seasons in, in 2005-7 (ish), and it did him the world of good.

Tyagi would not be the right option for Tests, he had a strong debut year, but has had two poor ones after that. A bowler who cannot take wickets in FC cricket has little chance of having a prolonged impact in Test cricket. Look at Zaheer Khan, whenever he plays domestic cricket, he cleans up with 3 or more wickets. He may pitch it up and be expensive, but he gets the wickets because he understands his bowling and knows how to get wickets - something which I do not think that any of the current crop of Indian pacers know how to do.

I think it may be the time for IKP to make a return to the fold. He has had two very strong FC seasons with ball and bat. He has not been perfect, but he has got overs under his belt and offers the batting, which is a bonus when you have no standout bowlers. I would like Bose or R Vinay Kumar to get a go in Tests, but neither looks likely and IKP is a good option, imo. I do suspect that he is injured atm though, as he has not played for Baroda for a while, I hope it is nothing serious.

I just hope we do not stick with Mithun before he can suppliment his first season. Mithun himself acknowledged that a plethora of bowlers have strong first seasons and then they fizzle out - kudos to him for doing that, but he should play one or two more full seasons before talk of Test selection begins.

As for OD cricket, the Vijay Hazare Trophy appears to be such a haphazard affair and the Deodhar Trophy is so short, that traditional methods of selecting players who have done well and are in form is probably in order - just as long as we do not rush anybody who is not fit, into action - such as Sreesanth, in recent ODIs.

 

[Pratters]

@ Uppercut - I think he can do okay when the conditions offer him movement and the wicket offers him more bounc like in the England series where he was decent. But that's about it so far. He has a long way to go but I wouldn't write him off completely say for the next 5 years.

 

[Manee]

I've occasionally wondered about all that, but wouldn't claim to know enough about India cricket to comment. In recent years we've seen R Singh, Sreesanth, Munaf Patel & now Sharma and all but the last one have come & gone. Singh in particular looked good in England a couple of years ago, so what went wrong?

The issue is that they were all picked too soon and so did not get the overs in, in domestic cricket. Therefore, they do not understand their bowling as well as a FC veteran like Sidebottom does - it is no coincidence that although armchair critics (such as, but not including myself) say he has lost his nip, he continues to take wickets. Moreover, this lack of FC cricket means that they are often injured and so can not build up the rhythm over months of playing to build up any considerable speed.

RP Singh is a solid bowler in helpful conditions though and I do not doubt that he has improved as a result of a full FC season for UP (in which he only did okay but bowled many overs). He angles the seam to a large angle which appears to create big swing in helpful conditions (Aus, Eng, SA) but results in no swing and therefore no seam movement in India and hinders his ability to be accurate (actually similar release to Saj Mahmood, but mirrorred). Bowling at 130k with no movement is fodder on a flat pitch.

 

[Pratters]

We should pick players based upon their domestic performances over more than one season - there is no need to stick to flawed selections. The flaw with RP Singh and Sreesanth is that they have been living off one FC season, which was long ago for both of them. RP Singh got a whole season in this year, which is valuable and he showed improvement throughout the season, originally taking wickets at 40 and it going down nearer to 30. A few seasons of long overs are priceless for a bowler's development, just ask Zaheer. He got three long seasons in, in 2005-7 (ish), and it did him the world of good.

Tyagi would not be the right option for Tests, he had a strong debut year, but has had two poor ones after that. A bowler who cannot take wickets in FC cricket has little chance of having a prolonged impact in Test cricket. Look at Zaheer Khan, whenever he plays domestic cricket, he cleans up with 3 or more wickets. He may pitch it up and be expensive, but he gets the wickets because he understands his bowling and knows how to get wickets - something which I do not think that any of the current crop of Indian pacers know how to do.

I think it may be the time for IKP to make a return to the fold. He has had two very strong FC seasons with ball and bat. He has not been perfect, but he has got overs under his belt and offers the batting, which is a bonus when you have no standout bowlers. I would like Bose or R Vinay Kumar to get a go in Tests, but neither looks likely and IKP is a good option, imo. I do suspect that he is injured atm though, as he has not played for Baroda for a while, I hope it is nothing serious.

I just hope we do not stick with Mithun before he can suppliment his first season. Mithun himself acknowledged that a plethora of bowlers have strong first seasons and then they fizzle out - kudos to him for doing that, but he should play one or two more full seasons before talk of Test selection begins.

As for OD cricket, the Vijay Hazare Trophy appears to be such a haphazard affair and the Deodhar Trophy is so short, that traditional methods of selecting players who have done well and are in form is probably in order - just as long as we do not rush anybody who is not fit, into action - such as Sreesanth, in recent ODIs.

Ranadeb Bose isn't threatening enough IMO and have seen plenty of his bowling being from Bengal. Irfan Pathan is not threatening enough as a bowler and it would mean picking a bits and pieces cricketer. Sreesanth or Tyagi have the talent but can they deliver? That's a million dollar question.

How has VRV Singh done this season? I really liked the way he was progressing.

 

[Manee]

Ishant looks done. It's not even about a lack of experience or practice, he's just bowling 10mph slower than he was a couple of years back. Needs a long break to work himself out I reckon.

It is about a lack of experience though, he does not understand his action and so when he is out of form, he cannot replicate it perfectly (losing accuracy and speed). This is no more evident than if you look at his speed on Cricinfo Hawkeye, he bowled some balls at 140kph (87mph) and over (one at 89.6mph) but also some at 130kph (80mph) and under. Interestingly, it is the short balls which time lower on the gun, which may mean that he has lost a degree of timing in his action.

 

[Pratters]

Thanks for your posts Manee. Always look forward to reading them.

 

[Manee]

Ranadeb Bose isn't threatening enough IMO and have seen plenty of his bowling being from Bengal. Irfan Pathan is not threatening enough as a bowler and it would mean picking a bits and pieces cricketer. Sreesanth or Tyagi have the talent but can they deliver? That's a million dollar question.

You say that he is not threatening, but surely the numbers speak for themselves, he understands what gets wickets and this is far more valuable than the 10kph of speed he is missing. Sreesanth and Tyagi have the talent, but if they cannot take FC wickets, it means nothing. IKP has taken wickets and this means that he can at least threaten FC batsmen.

How has VRV Singh done this season? I really liked the way he was progressing.

Must be injured, didn't play one game this year - pace duties taken over by Ablish, Gony and Harmeet Singh.

 

[Uppercut]

@ Uppercut - I think he can do okay when the wicket offers him more bouncer like in the England series where he was decent. But that's about it so far. He has a long way to go but I wouldn't write him off completely say for the next 5 years.

I think his bowling in England is being oversold in hindsight. He bowled well enough in the first test at Lord's then didn't do much for the rest of the series. The ball was hooping round corners for that whole summer, as a pure swing bowler his performances were a bit underwhelming. It didn't help that Zaheer was giving an exhibition on left-arm swing bowling at the other end.

If he improves he could be a good bowler, but you can say that about literally anyone. At the moment he bleeds runs from every orifice even when he's bowling well.

 

[Pratters]

@ Manee - Irfan Pathan when he last bowled at the international scene was pretty poor. Has he improved drastically? I hope but I would like to see performances in big matches like Duleep Trophy to give him another short at the test team. I have no problem trying him in the ODI team and then if he does well, try for a test slot maybe.

 

[Uppercut]

It is about a lack of experience though, he does not understand his action and so when he is out of form, he cannot replicate it perfectly (losing accuracy and speed). This is no more evident than if you look at his speed on Cricinfo Hawkeye, he bowled some balls at 140kph (87mph) and over (one at 89.6mph) but also some at 130kph (80mph) and under. Interestingly, it is the short balls which time lower on the gun, which may mean that he has lost a degree of timing in his action.

You have a point, but the conclusion remains the same. Playing a bunch of games for India isn't really going to solve his problems. I think he needs to go somewhere and take some time to work his game out.

 

[jeevan]

@ Manee - Irfan Pathan when he last bowled at the international scene was pretty poor. Has he improved drastically? I hope but I would like to see performances in big matches like Duleep Trophy to give him another short at the test team. I have no problem trying him in the ODI team and then if he does well, try for a test slot maybe.

Didn't IKP get a 5-for in the Duleep finals in the fist innings? (Dhawal Kulkarni got a 5-for in the other). The one that just finished about a week ago.

 

[Pratters]

I don't know. I am not following Domestic cricket keenly being short on time. I mean he has to perform in the big games and if he is doing that consistently (as a bowler purely, not as an all rounder), then yeah, worth a shot.

 

[Pratters]

2008-09 (India) 1212 50 508 27 7-35 18.81 3 0
2009-10 (India) 1020 21 647 31 5-100 20.87 1 0

That's pretty good.

 

[Cevno]

Super performance by India!!!!!

And excellent effort by Amla.He reminded me of Andy Flower's heroics when Zimbabwe toured India.

And btw,This should have been a 3 test series atleast.