Players with misleading averages....

[Migara]

Not in england mostly in their backyards..

May be a case for Kumble, but Mushtaq averages 28 in ENG, and Harbhajan is also not that bad.

 

[L Trumper]

May be a case for Kumble, but Mushtaq averages 28 in ENG, and Harbhajan is also not that bad.

See above link.

Averaging around 30 against a team supposed to be so bad against spin is not good enough.
That means the team is playing spin better than they give credit for.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

In fairness to Mushtaq, he dominated the majority of batsmen he faced in a very successful County career. The best of English batsmen are understandably better at playing spin (and generally other forms of bowling) than the majority of them.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Top Class (Obvious Alltime Greats): Tendulkar, Lara, Ponting, Steve Waugh

Steve Waugh top class? No way. An average propped up by 46 not outs, not even the best player in his family.

2nd Class (Arguable Alltime Greats): Hayden, Kallis, Dravid, Pietersen

Neither Hayden nor Pietersen belong here.

3rd Class (Quality Players, Not Alltime Greats): Sehwag, Gambhir, Inzamam, Chanderpaul, Hussey, Sangakkara, Smith, Flower, Thorp, Kirsten

Gambhir? Not yet.

4th Class (Inbetween Quality and Good): Jayawardene, Yousuf, Clarke, Langer, Gilchrist, Khan, Laxman, Martyn, de Villiers

You rank de Villiers in the same league as Gilchrist?

7th Class (Utility or Mediocre): Boucher, Flintoff, McKenzie, Vettori, Butcher, Bashar, Hussain, McCullum, Akmal

Tell that to the Aussies in 05

 

[Cevno]

Don't you know making runs in SL and Pakistan is **** easy so who cares Sehwag has been awesome in both countries while Pietersen has struggled in those neck of the woods.

Yeah!! Right the pitch in srilanka were so flat that he scored 201 of the 329 runs India managed to put up Not OUt.

I guess the others deliberately got out ,refusing to play on such a flat pitch.

 

[Jono]

It seems as if KP is being overrated based on the frustrating tendency to rate a player based on their performance against Australia and Australia only. It's similar to Laxman being rated very highly around here when he's really a very attractive, but not brilliant, batsman.

I don't really get the Sehwag detractors either. Whether he scores on flat tracks only is irrelevant to me, he's extremely effective, scores in a manner never before seen from an opener and imo is on par with Hayden (probably opening the aforementioned can of worms with that comment). Of course, time will tell whether he declines or continues on his current path.

O
M
G

DASAAAAAAAAA!

How you been mate!

All we need now is Slow Love to return

 

[GIMH]

Flower>>Pietersen. Should be in all time great list. Sangakkara > Pietersen.

Pietersen actually belongs in 4th Class with Yousuf, Jaya et al, who cannot score on foreign conditions.
And Laxman should be at least on 3rd class. Dilshan is way above in the class than 6th.

He's done well in Australia, India, West Indies & New Zealand. Record not so good in Pakistan, Saffa & SL. Hardly 'can't score in foreign conditions'. And the only place he has toured twice in Tests is India, where he went a lot better second time round than first. So let's see how he goes on his next visits to these places.

Funny how I always read bollocks on this forum about Ponting being short of great for his record in India, but Pietersen's record in Australia against Australia (when they were arguably the best team in the world) is casually ignored.

Now someone call me a fanboy and we can all go home happy

 

[Jono]

I have never seen anyone ignore Pietersen's record against Aust in Aust tbf.

Other than Migara, everyone is acknowledging that KP is a ****ing gun. But he is definitely not a class above Sehwag or Sanga, and not in the "arguable all-time greats" like Ben said.

I mean if KP were to retire now, he would not be close to being classified an all-time great.

 

[Cevno]

Pietersen is by no means a class above Sehwag or Sanga.

As for Sehwag, i think he is being underrated in this thread .

 

[Cruxdude]

Steve Waugh top class? No way. An average propped up by 46 not outs, not even the best player in his family.

Neither Hayden nor Pietersen belong here.

Gambhir? Not yet.

You rank de Villiers in the same league as Gilchrist?

Tell that to the Aussies in 05

I agree with almost everything you say here. Except Steve Waugh is the better batsman in his family. He would come in the next group along with Kallis and Dravid.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

And averages 25 against a side with Murali away.

I would pont out much better knocks by Sanga against better attacks. Ex. 230 against Pakistan on a green top.

Pietersen played on roads of Adelaide, Sydney, MCG and Brisbane while Sanga played in Cairns and Darwin on seaming tracks. What a comparison And Warne and McGrath are not the only good bowlers that were bowling that time as well.

This has nothing to do with my argument. I have a high regard of Hayden. My problem is that Pietersen is kept above Sangakkara, who is a much better batsman than KP.

Pietersen did nothing against Asif as well. He failed Miserable against Murali as well. So that would make the scores even.

Facing Murali in SL is different kettle of fish than playing him in England. Pietersen was simply manhandled by Murali in SL. Even in 3rd test in that English tour Murali was bossing KP. And in every ODI match theymet Murali always had upper hand against KP. While Sehwag played Murali beautifully in both home and away. Sangakkara played Warne and McGrath in their peak, whick KP did not do.

But success against the McGrath-Warne combination HOME and AWAY is by far superior to the next best thing. Why? Because you're not only facing one of the best bowlers (Muraliatharan) in his backyard, but you're facing two in their own backyard (McGrath and Warne). No other batsman, not even Tendulkar or Lara averaged 50+ against McGrath or Warne at both their home and away venues. It's not as if it's a fluke either, Pietersen averages 48 in Test Cricket all up and has averaged around 50 for the majority of his career.

As has been said, Warne had one of his most ever productive series' in 2005 and just months after 06/07, McGrath won the Player of the Tournament (although Hayden's batting was more impressive then McGrath's bowling during that tournament and he should've won that award) in the World Cup. They weren't past their best when Pietersen faced them.

Pietersen failed miserably against Asif? He played ONE test match against Asif. Got a golden duck in the first innings and scored 96 in the second innings. Therefore averaging 48 against Asif, which is his career average. Go ask the 90% of Test Cricketers who averaged lower then 48 in Test Cricket with the bat if they would consider it failing miserably?

Just out of curiousity, given that Sri Lankan pitches are more favourable to spin then pace - How many spinners has Sangakkara faced in his career that average under 30 in Test Cricket apart from Warne and Kumble?

Pietersen is not an arguable all time great. He hasn't achieved enough to be considered an all time great. With all the questions about his attitude, I seriously doubt if he will end up as a great player. Sehwag though has redefined batting. Tests have been played in India for many decades now but no one has ever scored at his rate and his consistency. Sehwag has more going for him than Pietersen right now.

Yeah, his got more going for him right now because Sehwag is in form and Pietersen isn't.

Steve Waugh top class? No way. An average propped up by 46 not outs, not even the best player in his family.

Neither Hayden nor Pietersen belong here.

Gambhir? Not yet.

You rank de Villiers in the same league as Gilchrist?

Tell that to the Aussies in 05

Maybe Waugh had so many not outs because he played 170 odd Tests?

Hayden doesn't deserve to be there? Garbage. He scored 30 Test Centuries in 93 Tests. Both Kallis and Dravid were regulars in their side, for years before Hayden burst onto the scene and yet Hayden retired before both of them and at the time of retirement had scored more Test Centuries then both of them and had played a considerable lot less matches. His still got more 100's then Dravid.

Yes, de Villiers is in the same class as Gilchrist. His the best batsman not averaging 45+ in Test Cricket. Considering that you use the arguement for Waugh getting so many not outs, why not Gilchrist?

 

[Jono]

Ben, surely if you state that KP has scored his runs in tougher circumstances and against better bowlers than Sehwag (though I disagree on the whole) you realise that Dravid has done the same when you compare him and Hayden?

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Ben, surely if you state that KP has scored his runs in tougher circumstances and against better bowlers than Sehwag (though I disagree on the whole) you realise that Dravid has done the same when you compare him and Hayden?

Slightly true, but not blatantly obvious like Sehwag and KP.

 

[Migara]

But success against the McGrath-Warne combination HOME and AWAY is by far superior to the next best thing. Why? Because you're not only facing one of the best bowlers (Muraliatharan) in his backyard, but you're facing two in their own backyard (McGrath and Warne). No other batsman, not even Tendulkar or Lara averaged 50+ against McGrath or Warne at both their home and away venues. It's not as if it's a fluke either, Pietersen averages 48 in Test Cricket all up and has averaged around 50 for the majority of his career.

Laxman averages 50+ against Aus home and away. Since he has done better than Tendulkar and dravid against Aus that should mean that Laxman > SRT / dravid. It's understandable that doing wll against Aussies does not mean doing well against every one. If you use that criteria to separate players I woudl say Kapil >> botham as an all rounder because Kapil did bloody well against WI.

As has been said, Warne had one of his most ever productive series' in 2005 and just months after 06/07, McGrath won the Player of the Tournament (although Hayden's batting was more impressive then McGrath's bowling during that tournament and he should've won that award) in the World Cup. They weren't past their best when Pietersen faced them.

We'll agree to disagree here.

Pietersen failed miserably against Asif? He played ONE test match against Asif. Got a golden duck in the first innings and scored 96 in the second innings. Therefore averaging 48 against Asif, which is his career average. Go ask the 90% of Test Cricketers who averaged lower then 48 in Test Cricket with the bat if they would consider it failing miserably?

I was analysing the whole picture. test vs ODIs. Since they only met twice, additional inmformation can only be found by looking at other formats.

Just out of curiousity, given that Sri Lankan pitches are more favourable to spin then pace - How many spinners has Sangakkara faced in his career that average under 30 in Test Cricket apart from Warne and Kumble?

Spin play has not been Sangakkara's greatest asset. But he faced Warne, Kumble, Vettori (averages <25 in SL) and MacGill. Add Harbhajan and Shakib as well, although the former averages 30+.

 

[wfdu_ben91]

Laxman averages 50+ against Aus home and away. Since he has done better than Tendulkar and dravid against Aus that should mean that Laxman > SRT / dravid. It's understandable that doing wll against Aussies does not mean doing well against every one. If you use that criteria to separate players I woudl say Kapil >> botham as an all rounder because Kapil did bloody well against WI.

We'll agree to disagree here.

I was analysing the whole picture. test vs ODIs. Since they only met twice, additional inmformation can only be found by looking at other formats.

Spin play has not been Sangakkara's greatest asset. But he faced Warne, Kumble, Vettori (averages <25 in SL) and MacGill. Add Harbhajan and Shakib as well, although the former averages 30+.

Laxman may of averaged 50+ home and away against Australia, but not in matches which involved both Warne and McGrath. Massive difference. Pietersen didn't only score against McGrath and Warne either. When inform Pietersen made the likes of Muralitharan and Steyn look very ordinary - not on dead pitches but in English conditions. If you're going to add additional information then Pietersen's ODI series against South Africa in 2005 should be brought up. Just because Pietersen may have a lower overall average, doesn't mean he isn't as good as Sangakkara or Sehwag. Ken Barrington averaged 58, but is he better then Viv Richards who averaged 50?

 

[Migara]

Laxman may of averaged 50+ home and away against Australia, but not in matches which involved both Warne and McGrath. Massive difference.
Pietersen didn't only score against McGrath and Warne either. When inform Pietersen made the likes of Muralitharan and Steyn look very ordinary - not on dead pitches but in English conditions. If you're going to add additional information then Pietersen's ODI series against South Africa in 2005 should be brought up. Just because Pietersen may have a lower overall average, doesn't mean he isn't as good as Sangakkara or Sehwag. Ken Barrington averaged 58, but is he better then Viv Richards who averaged 50?

1. Laxman averages 45.7 against both McGrath and Warne. When you remove that early matches where he was forced to open the innings (which was not his natural position), average is more than 50.

2. Laxman did it over a decade in may series, unlike KP who did it within 2 years of time in only two series.

3. Murali has been made to look very ordinary by Sidhu and Azhar earlier. KP was a non-match to them how they handled Murali.

4. KP only had the upper hand against Murali in 2 tests. Murali had the upper hand in 4 tests and numerous ODIs as well.

5. This was the first time I found out English conditions are spin friendly!

6. Sangakkara has performed poorly only in ENG & WI (Avg 30.5 & 34 respectively) while Pietersen has performed poorly in SL, SAF and PAK (25.2, 25.3. 33.5 respectively). Sanga's lowest is much better than KP's lowest. That's why he has the edge.

 

[Top_Cat]

Kemar Roach.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

2. Laxman did it over a decade in may series, unlike KP who did it within 2 years of time in only two series.

I see that and I raise you:

Laxman has only averaged over 39 once in a series involving McGrath and Warne.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

6. Sangakkara has performed poorly only in ENG & WI (Avg 30.5 & 34 respectively) while Pietersen has performed poorly in SL, SAF and PAK (25.2, 25.3. 33.5 respectively). Sanga's lowest is much better than KP's lowest. That's why he has the edge.

In fairness, SL is a country that you wouldn't expect Sangakkara to perform badly in. So there's not much between them in this comparison either.

 

[Migara]

In fairness, SL is a country that you wouldn't expect Sangakkara to perform badly in. So there's not much between them in this comparison either.

Then, ENG is a country that you wouldn't expect KP to perform badly in. And the point stands. Yes there's nothing much between the comparison, but to say Sanga is a class below KP is dross.