Ottis Gibson quits England for Windies role

[WindieWeathers]

What do you want Nash to do, try and play like Chris Gayle?

I would have liked him to had made a few runs, not take a damn lunch break at the crease .

 

[Craig]

Yep, form in the Champions League T20 = form in Test cricket/Test cricketer.

 

[Richard]

i mean it's as if you're against anyone under the age of 23 getting a chance in the side, you have to understand that sometimes a youngster can be very good regardless of their age.

Go and find me a seam-bowler who was a Test-class cricketer at the age of 19-20-21-22 then.

You'll find you're limited to those who have gone on to become some of the greatest bowlers in history. And even then only a tiny number of them - the greatest of them all, Malcolm Marshall, was nowhere near Test quality at 20.

 

[Richard]

When you lose games it's hard to know what your "best team" is to be honest , my problem with Shiv is all about his form, i mention his age because maybe that might have something to do with it, no-one can go on forever.

No-one can go on forever of course, but to say "he's <insert age> so his time must've come" is plain silly. I've not been taking acute note of Chanderpaul's recent innings' so I can't myself comment on whether his recent relative lack of runs is a product of decline or loss of form, but plenty of others seem convinced it's the latter and if he himself feels it's so (batsmen can sometimes tell when they've "lost it", though not always) then he's probably best served giving it more than, what, 5 Tests or so that it's been of his relative lack of form?

 

[WindieWeathers]

Yep, form in the Champions League T20 = form in Test cricket/Test cricketer.

I said he performed on the big stage, is the champions league not the big stage? , and if you've seen him play you'd know his game is more suited to test cricket.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Go and find me a seam-bowler who was a Test-class cricketer at the age of 19-20-21-22 then.

You'll find you're limited to those who have gone on to become some of the greatest bowlers in history. And even then only a tiny number of them - the greatest of them all, Malcolm Marshall, was nowhere near Test quality at 20.

I wasn't just talking about the bowlers when i mentioned the age, and anyway aren't Aamar and Parnell good enough to play at test level?.

 

[Richard]

Go and find me a seam-bowler who was a Test-class cricketer at the age of 19-20-21-22 then.

You'll find you're limited to those who have gone on to become some of the greatest bowlers in history. And even then only a tiny number of them - the greatest of them all, Malcolm Marshall, was nowhere near Test quality at 20.

Actually I preferred to go and do it myself...

Ian Botham was Test-standard at 22 in 1977/78.
Fred Trueman was Test-standard at 21 in 1952.
Waqar Younis was probably only 21 when he became Test-standard in 1990/91, though there's already dispute over his actual age.
Ian Bishop was Test-standard at 21 in 1989 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
Wesley Winfield Hall was Test-standard at 21 in 1958/59.
Peter Pollock was Test-standard at 20 in 1961/62.
Jason Gillespie's bowling was Test-standard at 21 in 1996/97 but his fitness certainly wasn't.
Heath Streak was Test-standard at 20 in 1994/95 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
Shaun Pollock was Test-standard at 22 in 1995/96.
Chaminda Vaas was Test-standard at 20 in 1994/95.
Wayne Daniel was Test-standard at 20 in 1976.
Bruce Taylor was Test-standard at 21 in 1964/65.
Wasim Akram's age is not really known but officially he was Test-standard at 18 in 1984/85 - of course he was probably a fair bit older than that.
Kapil Dev was Test-standard at 20 in 1978/79.
Bob Willis was Test-standard at 22 in 1970/71 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
And there are a few more borderline cases.

So in short you can see that the chance of a seam bowler being Test-standard in his early 20s is exceptionally remote, and that if he is he's almost certainly going to become one of the best ever, in which case you'd expect him to be doing something pretty notable at domestic level at an even younger age, perhaps as a teenager. And probably to have been a very hot prospect indeed through age-group levels.

 

[WindieWeathers]

No-one can go on forever of course, but to say "he's <insert age> so his time must've come" is plain silly. I've not been taking acute note of Chanderpaul's recent innings' so I can't myself comment on whether his recent relative lack of runs is a product of decline or loss of form, but plenty of others seem convinced it's the latter and if he himself feels it's so (batsmen can sometimes tell when they've "lost it", though not always) then he's probably best served giving it more than, what, 5 Tests or so that it's been of his relative lack of form?

I just want what's best for WI, if Chanders somehow got back to the form he was in 2 years ago then fair enough i'd be delighted but i can't see that happening, it seems like he's only good for 20 runs at most these days and rather than waste an important batting spot on someone who's totally off form i'd prefer to give a very promising young player a chance to impress, for me Bravo has every chance of doing what Barath did against the Aussies..

 

[Richard]

I wasn't just talking about the bowlers when i mentioned the age

It's not all that much different for batsmen either, but the case for Darren Bravo to play right now is inconsiderable and I doubt anyone is seriously contemplating it.

and anyway aren't Aamar and Parnell good enough to play at test level?.

Until this thread I'd never even heard of them so I obviously can't offer an informed opinion, but based on the fact that almost no bowler is good enough at their age I'd say the answer is very probably no.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Actually I preferred to go and do it myself...

Ian Botham was Test-standard at 22 in 1977/78.
Fred Trueman was Test-standard at 21 in 1952.
Waqar Younis was probably only 21 when he became Test-standard in 1990/91, though there's already dispute over his actual age.
Ian Bishop was Test-standard at 21 in 1989 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
Wesley Winfield Hall was Test-standard at 21 in 1958/59.
Peter Pollock was Test-standard at 20 in 1961/62.
Jason Gillespie's bowling was Test-standard at 21 in 1996/97 but his fitness certainly wasn't.
Heath Streak was Test-standard at 20 in 1994/95 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
Shaun Pollock was Test-standard at 22 in 1995/96.
Chaminda Vaas was Test-standard at 20 in 1994/95.
Wayne Daniel was Test-standard at 20 in 1976.
Bruce Taylor was Test-standard at 21 in 1964/65.
Wasim Akram's age is not really known but officially he was Test-standard at 18 in 1984/85 - of course he was probably a fair bit older than that.
Kapil Dev was Test-standard at 20 in 1978/79.
Bob Willis was Test-standard at 22 in 1970/71 but went on to have an injury-riddled career.
And there are a few more borderline cases.

So in short you can see that the chance of a seam bowler being Test-standard in his early 20s is exceptionally remote, and that if he is he's almost certainly going to become one of the best ever, in which case you'd expect him to be doing something pretty notable at domestic level at an even younger age, perhaps as a teenager. And probably to have been a very hot prospect indeed through age-group levels.

What's your definition of "test standard" then? because if it's someone who is capable of taking wickets at test level on a regular basis then i'd say Roach, Aamar and possibly Parnell already look like "test standard" to be honest.

 

[WindieWeathers]

It's not all that much different for batsmen either, but the case for Darren Bravo to play right now is inconsiderable and I doubt anyone is seriously contemplating it.

So i take it you're clued up on everything that goes on in West Indian cricket? if Adrian Barath at the age of 19 can make his test debut why on earth can't 20 year old Darren Bravo make his soon too? his name has just as much buzz as Barath's did imo.

Until this thread I'd never even heard of them so I obviously can't offer an informed opinion, but based on the fact that almost no bowler is good enough at their age I'd say the answer is very probably no.

Are you being sarcastic? you haven't seen 17 year old Aamar taking wickets for Pakistan recently then?.

 

[Richard]

What's your definition of "test standard" then? because if it's someone who is capable of taking wickets at test level on a regular basis then i'd say Roach, Aamar and possibly Parnell already look like "test standard" to be honest.

I'd say it's taking wickets at a decent average and not breaking down ATT.

I don't care if someone looks like they can do it; all I care is whether they actually can. Roach certainly can't yet (whether he ever will we wait to see), Parnell has barely had the chance and Aamer hardly has.

 

[Richard]

So i take it you're clued up on everything that goes on in West Indian cricket? if Adrian Barath at the age of 19 can make his test debut why on earth can't 20 year old Darren Bravo make his soon too? his name has just as much buzz as Barath's did imo.

I wasn't in favour of Barath making his Test debut when he did and I wait to see whether he'll be successful, at this young age and at all.

Are you being sarcastic? you haven't seen 17 year old Aamar taking wickets for Pakistan recently then?.

Ah yes you were talking about Mohammad Aamer and Wayne Parnell, thought they were some West Indian teenagers - well of course I've heard of them but Aamer's hardly excelled himself and in any case being Pakistani there's no way on Earth we can be sure he's actually 17 - he may well be several years older than that. Parnell has looked something of a novice and has so far played 1 Test.

 

[WindieWeathers]

I'd say it's taking wickets at a decent average and not breaking down ATT.

I don't care if someone looks like they can do it; all I care is whether they actually can.

Well Roach was one of the best bowlers on the pitch against Australia and he took wickets, and so was Aamar one of the best bowlers for Pakistan and he also took wickets.

Roach is 21 and Aamar is 17, so i guess their rise doesn't comply with your theory about bowlers and age .

 

[Richard]

Well Roach was one of the best bowlers on the pitch against Australia and he took wickets, and so was Aamar one of the best bowlers for Pakistan and he also took wickets.

Roach is 21 and Aamar is 17, so i guess their rise doesn't comply with your theory about bowlers and age .

As I say we don't know how old Aamer actually is, and neither remotely look like taking Test wickets at an acceptable average currently. We wait to see when and if they do.

 

[WindieWeathers]

As I say we don't know how old Aamer actually is, and neither remotely look like taking Test wickets at an acceptable average currently. We wait to see when and if they do.

Until it's proven otherwise then he's 17, i know Asian sides have had a few issues with the age of their players in the past but we can't paint everyone with the same brush, even if he's 20 he's still holding his own at test level, when i look at Jason Holder he has a physique beyond his years, even though he just turned 18 he looks like he's about 25 already and his bowling is just deadly, that's why i believe he'll be ready to step up sooner rather than later.

 

[Richard]

Until it's proven otherwise then he's 17, i know Asian sides have had a few issues with the age of their players in the past but we can't paint everyone with the same brush, even if he's 20 he's still holding his own at test level

Pakistani and Bangladeshis had until pretty recently no formal birth registration systems and thus there's no certainty over the ages of any Pakistani or Bangladeshi players until whichever date that came in (I'm not sure but it was certainly later than 1992). There are hundreds of Pakistanis whose ages are pretty much taken as read as being a fair bit older than listed, not just "a few". Aamer is not 17 until proven otherwise; he's probably older than that as no 17-year-old bowler has ever really done even as modestly well as he has. Logic, not flimsy things presented as facts, takes precedence for me.

when i look at Jason Holder he has a physique beyond his years, even though he just turned 18 he looks like he's about 25 already and his bowling is just deadly, that's why i believe he'll be ready to step up sooner rather than later.

With all due respect you do strike me as someone who has a rather over-excited perception of their own players, especially young ones.

 

[Craig]

I said he performed on the big stage, is the champions league not the big stage? , and if you've seen him play you'd know his game is more suited to test cricket.

Good for him. What does that have to do with FC cricket and make him deserving a spot in the Test team?

 

[WindieWeathers]

Pakistani and Bangladeshis had until pretty recently no formal birth registration systems and thus there's no certainty over the ages of any Pakistani or Bangladeshi players until whichever date that came in (I'm not sure but it was certainly later than 1992). There are hundreds of Pakistanis whose ages are pretty much taken as read as being a fair bit older than listed, not just "a few". Aamer is not 17 until proven otherwise; he's probably older than that as no 17-year-old bowler has ever really done even as modestly well as he has. Logic, not flimsy things presented as facts, takes precedence for me.

"Probably" doesn't mean "true" though does it? and in all honesty i'm inclined to believe you wouldn't be making such a case if Aamer wasn't proving your theory wrong..

With all due respect you do strike me as someone who has a rather over-excited perception of their own players, especially young ones.

Yes i'm enthusiastic about Wi's young talent, why shouldn't i be? i mean i called for Barath to be called up last year and you've already confessed that you didn't agree with his call up so looking at things right now who do you think got it right? .

 

[WindieWeathers]

Good for him. What does that have to do with FC cricket and make him deserving a spot in the Test team?

If we're going on FC cricket alone then Ramdin should be opening the batting for us , the bottom line is the kid has talent and i'd like to see him given a chance, he's played one day cricket for the West Indies already and scored 19 runs off 16 balls against India, all the kid needs now IMO is experience in the longer form of the game.