Ottis Gibson quits England for Windies role

[shivfan]

It's good to see that Gibson has opted to take on the challenge of coaching the West Indies....

I agree with Mr Mx that it's good that a WI past player of international coaching pedigree will be taking the reins. I think he brings something else to the WI coaching setup that maybe Williams wasn't able to provide. If they both work together, I'm sure they'll make a good team.

And talking of a good team, given that the Windies are finally starting to be competitive in tests, the last thing I would do is jettison the experienced players in the team. A good team has to be a mix of experience and youth, and for that reason, both Chanderpaul and Nash have to be in that team.

Nash outperformed North in the recent Test series. Nash was the fourth highest scorer in the series (on both sides) with 250 runs at an average of 41. In contrast, North, who batted at a similar position for Australia, could only manage 166 runs at 31. This clearly shows that Nash is playing a vital role in the WI side. After all, Test cricket is a marathon, not a sprint....

Yes, Shiv is going thru a bad patch right now, but he still averages 48 in Test cricket, and you don't just discard someone like that without giving him a chance to bat himself back into form. After all, form is temporary, but class is permanent.

If youngsters want to get into the side ahead of this duo, they MUST state a case for themselves with the bat in the domestic competition, and when they get a chance to play for the West Indies. Deonarine's return to the side was promising, but it hardly said, "I deserve to be in the side ahead of you too."

Personally, I'm still not convinced that Dwayne Bravo does enough with the bat on a consistent basis to deserve a place at number six. As for Darren Bravo, he's injured, and not even playing for Trinidad, so he can't be considered for another year, IMHO.

This would be my eleven, given that Edwards is injured, and unlikely to play against SOuth Africa....

1) Gayle
2) Barath
3) Sarwan
4) Chanderpaul
5) Nash
6) Deonarine
7) Bravo
8) Ramdin
9) Benn
10) Taylor/Rampaul/Collins
11) Roach

 

[WindieWeathers]

It's good to see that Gibson has opted to take on the challenge of coaching the West Indies....

I agree with Mr Mx that it's good that a WI past player of international coaching pedigree will be taking the reins. I think he brings something else to the WI coaching setup that maybe Williams wasn't able to provide. If they both work together, I'm sure they'll make a good team.

And talking of a good team, given that the Windies are finally starting to be competitive in tests, the last thing I would do is jettison the experienced players in the team. A good team has to be a mix of experience and youth, and for that reason, both Chanderpaul and Nash have to be in that team.

Nash outperformed North in the recent Test series. Nash was the fourth highest scorer in the series (on both sides) with 250 runs at an average of 41. In contrast, North, who batted at a similar position for Australia, could only manage 166 runs at 31. This clearly shows that Nash is playing a vital role in the WI side. After all, Test cricket is a marathon, not a sprint....

Yes, Shiv is going thru a bad patch right now, but he still averages 48 in Test cricket, and you don't just discard someone like that without giving him a chance to bat himself back into form. After all, form is temporary, but class is permanent.

If youngsters want to get into the side ahead of this duo, they MUST state a case for themselves with the bat in the domestic competition, and when they get a chance to play for the West Indies. Deonarine's return to the side was promising, but it hardly said, "I deserve to be in the side ahead of you too."

Personally, I'm still not convinced that Dwayne Bravo does enough with the bat on a consistent basis to deserve a place at number six. As for Darren Bravo, he's injured, and not even playing for Trinidad, so he can't be considered for another year, IMHO.

This would be my eleven, given that Edwards is injured, and unlikely to play against SOuth Africa....

1) Gayle
2) Barath
3) Sarwan
4) Chanderpaul
5) Nash
6) Deonarine
7) Bravo
8) Ramdin
9) Benn
10) Taylor/Rampaul/Collins
11) Roach

Would that be the same North who is under huge pressure for his place because he's been poor for the Aussies recently? comparing Nash to North is a little misleading imo because North had better players around him so his contribution is not as important as Nash's is to us, and you're saying "we should have experience along with youth" but from what i can see there's only one "youngster" in the top 6 of your batting line-up, the rest are 30, 29, 35, 32 and 26, that's an old batting attack imo, my view is we've lost games with the same guys in the team, why not give the new coach something new to work with? the old boys haven't got us anywhere thus far so i can't see how that's gonna change anytime soon.

 

[Craig]

Small point but I thought Pedro Collins was a Kolpak for Surrey?

 

[WindieWeathers]

Small point but I thought Pedro Collins was a Kolpak for Surrey?

Not anymore he got released from Surrey, and for me he's too old now anyway, i'd rather give Jason Holder a chance if he keeps his form for Barbados but no doubt people will say "he's too young" .

 

[Craig]

Whatever happened to Jason Bennett? I don't have a problem with picking young players, as long as they have proven themselves to be worthy of a call up.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Whatever happened to Jason Bennett? I don't have a problem with picking young players, as long as they have proven themselves to be worthy of a call up.

He's taken 10 wickets thus far in the domestic season, it's not bad but i don't think he's any better than what we have already, apart from the usual names the seamers to look out for look seem to be Brandan Bess for Guyana who's having a decent spell (he's taken 12 wickets this far) and Shannon Gabriel who's creating a buzz after his performances for Trinidad , he's just made his debut but already the selectors are watching his games.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Well someone had to take a risk surely? if Deonarine would have done what Nash did the game would have become a farce, it was almost as if Nash proving something to the Aussies was more important than us winning a game we was dominating, his performance was poor imo and Deonarine looks like he's got more shots in his arsenal.

Why did someone have to take a risk? There was more than enough time. The problem was that Deonarine, evidently, didn't have the temperament for a slow period of Test cricket. But that's Test cricket. That's what Chanderpaul does brilliantly- concentrate when things are slow. There was absolutely no need for a risk. It was not a limited overs match.

I've seen a lot of Deonarine at all levels, and he is always prone to a stupid shot. He has improved massively in the last couple of seasons, but he is certainly not better than Chanderpaul.

 

[Woodster]

Well in his second test against the Aussies Deonarine actually around 80 runs from what i remember and his stroke play was very good indeed, he's also been piling up the runs for Guyana in the domestic competition for a while now so i believe he's ready to step in, he's actually very similar to Chanders in the way he plays anyway, as for Darren Bravo, i'm sure you could have said the same thing about Barath before his knock in Australia, the truth is we won't know for sure until he's given a chance, i happen to think he's got the talent to be a little more effective than Nash, Nash has been great but he does tend to slow down the run rate at times which can hurt our chances, i agree about Ramdin but Bravo is hit and miss really, he got himself a 100 in Australia aswell if i remember correctly.

Deonarine did play well, as did Bravo for his hundred, but your judgement is based around one innings! Deonarine may possibly become a permanent fixture in the side, however, it will be exceptionally difficult to play Barath, Deonarine, and Bravo all in the top 5 and learn about Test cricket, all at the same time. Especially with a quality player such as Chanderpaul on the sidelines.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Bravo might not have set the world on fire at FC level but believe me he's got all the shots in the book and it's not "if" he plays for the Windies it's "when" IMO.

Of course he'll play for West Indies, barring some disaster. That doesn't mean that he should do so immediately. He's not ready.

the old boys haven't got us anywhere thus far so i can't see how that's gonna change anytime soon.

To be an old boy in the West Indies team you have to be doing something right. Gayle, Sarwan, Chanders- these are the old boys, and they're WI's best players. It's the youngsters who have been the weak links, because they've been tried too soon. West Indies' domestic system is so far behind other countries that picking players too early can be particularly harmful to their development. And they're particularly likely to fail. Say what you like about statistics, but if you struggle to score runs at a very low level, you're unlikely to do it against the best of Australia and South Africa.

Not anymore he got released from Surrey, and for me he's too old now anyway, i'd rather give Jason Holder a chance if he keeps his form for Barbados but no doubt people will say "he's too young" .

No way! What precedent is there to suggest that picking completely inexperienced youngsters works for West Indies? Guys like Taylor and Edwards have only just started to come good, which shows they shouldn't have been picked when they were- they weren't ready. You let a bowler develop at FC level first. It's more about experience than youth in terms of performance.

However, he is too young. A fast bowler picked as a teenager is just waiting to break down. You really should let these guys develop some strength so that they can cope long term with what is a very physically demanding art. Ask Jerome Taylor.

He's taken 10 wickets thus far in the domestic season, it's not bad but i don't think he's any better than what we have already, apart from the usual names the seamers to look out for look seem to be Brandan Bess for Guyana who's having a decent spell (he's taken 12 wickets this far) and Shannon Gabriel who's creating a buzz after his performances for Trinidad , he's just made his debut but already the selectors are watching his games.

Brandon Bess is going for over 4 per over in one of the weakest domestic competitions in the world. He may have pace, but he's certainly nowhere near to Test class. Shannon Gabriel hasn't even finished his debut yet, and has been quick, but pretty horrible otherwise from what I gather. Very inconsistent, loads of noballs, and very expensive. Let's not get excited about him until he's played a full season at least.

As for Bennett, I think he may be past it. He should have definitely been picked a couple of years ago, but now he's 28 or so. Yes, the likes of Bradshaw and Drakes were picked late on and did a job, but Bennett may have jumped the shark, having been stalled at such a low developmental level for so long.

 

[Richard]

the only way we are gonna move forward is by trying new things

In Test cricket that's always the way. However the premise of Test cricket is best vs. best, so thus the general idea is to pick your best side. Test sides are ever-changing things - pretty much no Test side remains the same for more than a handful of games at a time. But the only time you should change a Test side is if you think you can make it better - the age of a player is a near-irrelevance.

 

[shivfan]

Would that be the same North who is under huge pressure for his place because he's been poor for the Aussies recently? comparing Nash to North is a little misleading imo because North had better players around him so his contribution is not as important as Nash's is to us, and you're saying "we should have experience along with youth" but from what i can see there's only one "youngster" in the top 6 of your batting line-up, the rest are 30, 29, 35, 32 and 26, that's an old batting attack imo, my view is we've lost games with the same guys in the team, why not give the new coach something new to work with? the old boys haven't got us anywhere thus far so i can't see how that's gonna change anytime soon.

Nash was still the fourth-highest run-getter on both sides in that Test series....

Until a youngster comes along to demand his place, I can't seem him being moved. What has Darren Bravo done to DESERVE a place in the Test side? What has any youngster done to merit a place in the side ahead of Nash?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But the only time you should change a Test side is if you think you can make it better - the age of a player is a near-irrelevance.

Until a youngster comes along to demand his place, I can't seem him being moved. What has Darren Bravo done to DESERVE a place in the Test side? What has any youngster done to merit a place in the side ahead of Nash?

These. If it ain't broke...

The team already has enough holes to plug, without needing to make new holes, just so they could try out a new plug.

 

[Craig]

Travis Dowlin confuses the **** out of me, watching him bat you know he isn't very good, but he still made two half centuries against Australia.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Travis Dowlin confuses the **** out of me, watching him bat you know he isn't very good, but he still made two half centuries against Australia.

He works hard. Not much natural talent, but he works hard with what he has. I have a lot of respect for that. He surprised me too, but he deserved every run he scored in Australia.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Why did someone have to take a risk? There was more than enough time. The problem was that Deonarine, evidently, didn't have the temperament for a slow period of Test cricket. But that's Test cricket. That's what Chanderpaul does brilliantly- concentrate when things are slow. There was absolutely no need for a risk. It was not a limited overs match.

I've seen a lot of Deonarine at all levels, and he is always prone to a stupid shot. He has improved massively in the last couple of seasons, but he is certainly not better than Chanderpaul.

Nash's "patience" was all in vain though because a little after Deonarine went Nash's stumps went flying too , it's one thing being calm and taking your time, and it's another thing not contributing any runs and putting all the pressure on your partner, and that's exactly what Nash did.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Deonarine did play well, as did Bravo for his hundred, but your judgement is based around one innings! Deonarine may possibly become a permanent fixture in the side, however, it will be exceptionally difficult to play Barath, Deonarine, and Bravo all in the top 5 and learn about Test cricket, all at the same time. Especially with a quality player such as Chanderpaul on the sidelines.

If the "seniors" like Chanderpaul aren't contributing much then why not? i mean to me Deonarine isn't really a "youngster" because he's played test cricket before, he's more like a late bloomer, so the only true youngsters would be Barath and Bravo imo which isn't that bad.

 

[Craig]

What do you want Nash to do, try and play like Chris Gayle?

 

[WindieWeathers]

Of course he'll play for West Indies, barring some disaster. That doesn't mean that he should do so immediately. He's not ready.

The only thing he lacks in test experience IMO, he impressed for Trinidad in the champions league so he clearly isn't scared of the big stage.

To be an old boy in the West Indies team you have to be doing something right. Gayle, Sarwan, Chanders- these are the old boys, and they're WI's best players. It's the youngsters who have been the weak links, because they've been tried too soon. West Indies' domestic system is so far behind other countries that picking players too early can be particularly harmful to their development. And they're particularly likely to fail. Say what you like about statistics, but if you struggle to score runs at a very low level, you're unlikely to do it against the best of Australia and South Africa.

"You have to be doing something right"? have you seen our results Mr M? , yes Chanders was our best player 2 YEARS AGO but that clearly wasn't evident in Australia, it's time to look at the here and now, we've got options and not all the youngsters are gonna fail like Xavior Marshall, infact the last two youngsters to come into the side (Barath and Roach) have clearly been a success so why can't that trend continue?

No way! What precedent is there to suggest that picking completely inexperienced youngsters works for West Indies? Guys like Taylor and Edwards have only just started to come good, which shows they shouldn't have been picked when they were- they weren't ready. You let a bowler develop at FC level first. It's more about experience than youth in terms of performance.

Do we have a bucket load of quality bowlers to choose from? i don't think so, it was the average bowling by the likes of Rampaul that cost us in the second test against the Aussies, that's why i believe we should have the likes of Holder around seniors as soon as possible so he can get some top level experience.

However, he is too young. A fast bowler picked as a teenager is just waiting to break down. You really should let these guys develop some strength so that they can cope long term with what is a very physically demanding art. Ask Jerome Taylor.

Erm what about Aamar and Pernell then? i mean it's as if you're against anyone under the age of 23 getting a chance in the side, you have to understand that sometimes a youngster can be very good regardless of their age.

Brandon Bess is going for over 4 per over in one of the weakest domestic competitions in the world. He may have pace, but he's certainly nowhere near to Test class. Shannon Gabriel hasn't even finished his debut yet, and has been quick, but pretty horrible otherwise from what I gather. Very inconsistent, loads of noballs, and very expensive. Let's not get excited about him until he's played a full season at least.

Our new coach is possibly the best bowling coach in the game today, "raw talent" is something he thrives on, i guarantee our young bowlers will only get better under Gibson's guidence, and that's something Taylor, Edwards etc never had when they were coming up.

 

[WindieWeathers]

In Test cricket that's always the way. However the premise of Test cricket is best vs. best, so thus the general idea is to pick your best side. Test sides are ever-changing things - pretty much no Test side remains the same for more than a handful of games at a time. But the only time you should change a Test side is if you think you can make it better - the age of a player is a near-irrelevance.

When you lose games it's hard to know what your "best team" is to be honest , my problem with Shiv is all about his form, i mention his age because maybe that might have something to do with it, no-one can go on forever.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Nash was still the fourth-highest run-getter on both sides in that Test series....

Until a youngster comes along to demand his place, I can't seem him being moved. What has Darren Bravo done to DESERVE a place in the Test side? What has any youngster done to merit a place in the side ahead of Nash?

I already said i'd replace Nash WITH DEONARINE who isn't a youngster , i mean damn anyone would think Nash was world class , he's done ok but for me we need someone in the middle order who has more shots in their arsenal. Nash is nothing but a survivor imo, but we need someone who can actually WIN us a game for once.