*Official* England in Bangladesh

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Yeah but the best young batsman in the country can only average 25 in it last season.

 

[aussie]

Yeah but the best young batsman in the country can only average 25 in it last season.

Good job continuing to miss the point. I presume you would like to see these wonder ful ENG batsmen who did well in DIV 2 last season like Afzaal, James Taylor, Key, Gidman

Or even the DIV 1 dominant class of Nash, Hildereth, Adams, Sayers, Joyce be picked ahead of Morgan as a back-up middle-order bat to Trott/KP/Colly/Bell.

For the record I do think that Morgan will play test matches for England and he may be well have a decent of success in the future you can still not past the fact that he needs to get runs on a more consistant basis first as he himself recognises he needs to work on his batting in the first class game, lets have a couple of good seasons and then we will see.

Now you talking..

I dont doubt that nor have i debated that. I would love for him to get a nice season behind him first. But as Brmby righfully mentioned when Collingwood first played test in 2003, he had worst/comparable FC average - Colly was basically given a go in the test team because;

- he impressed in ODIs

- because the better batsmen in either DIV 1 or 2 where not good enough despite their higher average.

Even then many people didn't want Colly in test team. Morgan case is similar average wise but the difference is unlike Colly he looks already like he has the goods to be a good test bat & people are pushing for him to get a place. Unlike Colly circa 2003-2005 who he didn't look like a test bat - nor was anyone backing him for a test place.

Very simple stuff..

 

[Pothas]

To be fair though Collingwood did not impress in his first little stint in the England side, and when he came back into the in on what turned out to be a permanent basis it was on the back of an very strong summer.

Also you mention James Taylor, well if he has another season like he did last year and he will be putting himself right in contention for an ashes trip, not sure why you included him with the other names in that list.

 

[aussie]

To be fair though Collingwood did not impress in his first little stint in the England side, and when he came back into the in on what turned out to be a permanent basis it was on the back of an very strong summer.

In division 2 though. Just like how Bopara was first picked in SRI 07/08, then recalled in WI 08 on back of DIV 2 batting for Essex.

Colly certainly didn't look test quality in 05 Oval & Multan tests - it was in the Lahore test where he kicked on. Colly overall has just adapted to test cricket i'd say he never really earnt a place via strong DIV 1 batting for Durham.

Also you mention James Taylor, well if he has another season like he did last year and he will be putting himself right in contention for an ashes trip, not sure why you included him with the other names in that list.

I included him because right now he is not ready nor is he better than choice than Morgan as back-up middle order test bat. He certainly is the future though & is the only other batsman behind Morgan that excites me.

About the Ashes i'm not so sure. Leicestershire will still be in Div 2 this year IIRC, i'd like to see him dominate in DIV 1 before i or anyone should feel truly comfortable with him. Lets not do a Bopara again..

 

[Jarquis]

Would rather see Joyce or maybe even Patel ahead of Morgan tbh.

 

[Prince EWS]

Atherton coming out of retirement > Morgan.

 

[aussie]

Would rather see Joyce or maybe even Patel ahead of Morgan tbh.

Joyce is definately still very much an option - if he where to get a go before Morgan no issue. But i dont know something about Joyce looks like another Crawley, Ed Smith type player

Patel IMO just doesn't look like a potential test batsman. Again the whole not judging the averages on face value stuff & just basing it on the times ive seen him play. Far more comfortable with him as ODI player & he should have Wright's spot ATM in the ODI team @ # 7.

 

[aussie]

Atherton coming out of retirement > Morgan.

Gough coming out of retirement > Davies

 

[Scaly piscine]

The reasoning is FAR more legitimate than you trying to equate Kallis to Ponting as player of the decade. So you better back up..




. Yes Scaly you keep judging domestic stats on face value - this is why you will continue to argue for Ian Blackwell to

Lets break them down season by season - division vs division since 04.

Lewis:

2004 (DIV 1) - 25

2005 (DIV 1) - 27

2006 (Div 2)22 The year he played the only test.

2007 (Div 2) - 39

2008 (Div 2) - 28

2009 (Div 2) - 20


Davies:

2004 (DIV 2) - 18

2005 - (DIV 2) 15

2006 (DIV 1) - injured missed most the season

2007 (DIV 1) - 27. This was the year i acutally saw him bowl @ Blackpool CG vs Lancashire & even Ottis Gibson who had shockingly averaged 20 that season looked a better bowler than him. If things like that don't disturb you that a 38 year old Gibson who had no international future could be the LEADING bowler in our premier FC division - then nothing will..

2008 (Div 1) -15. Same season Harmison after having a shocking tour to NZ averaged 19

2009 (DIV 1) - 29



Two comparable county trundlers. So again unless you & other people actually begin to accept that Division one has serious problems when it comes to its standard of cricket - Davies will continue to be backed based on his wonderful FC record...

One averages over 25, the over averages under 20 and has faced tougher opposition - and you're saying the guy who averages much more is at least as good as Davies. You've got one more reply before you go onto ignore. Even the biggest idiot should be able to see what abject ****e you're talking.

 

[King Pietersen]

He's basing his whole argument on the pace that Davies bowls. He's barely seen him bowl, has ignored the exceptional stats and is presuming that he's not any better than Lewis, just because they bowl at a comparable pace. Just presuming that Davies would be a flop on the basis that inferior bowlers bowling at similar pace have failed in the Test arena is a pretty laughable argument AFAIC. At least give the bloke a chance before completely writing him off as a viable Test option. No-one's saying he's going to come in and blast Test batting line-ups away at an average of 20, but surely given the fact he's been magnificent in County Cricket since 2004 should make him deserving of at least an oppurtunity? Just setting yourself up to look an idiot by slagging someone off without firstly having seen them play on a number of ocassions and then secondly without having seen them given a chance on the big stage.

 

[GIMH]

aussie, you state that the season you saw Davies bowl was also the season where he collected his worst figures. Do you think, therefore, that it is possible you saw him bowling below the standards he has set before and since?

 

[marc71178]

Two comparable county trundlers.

Any 2 things are comparable - what you're missing is that over that 6 year period, Davies has averaged less in 4 out of them (and not just a little bit less, it's been 7, 12, 12, and 13 runs per wicket) - it's not even close.

 

[marc71178]

Far more comfortable with him as ODI player & he should have Wright's spot ATM in the ODI team @ # 7.

Why exactly? One's a top order batsman, one's an all-rounder - square pegs and round holes anyone?

 

[four_or_six]

Atherton coming out of retirement > Morgan.

Now that would be great. Got to see Blur last year live, Chris Evans is back on breakfast radio, all I need to make my life complete is to see Athers back in an England cap.

 

[aussie]

He's basing his whole argument on the pace that Davies bowls. He's barely seen him bowl, has ignored the exceptional stats and is presuming that he's not any better than Lewis, just because they bowl at a comparable pace. Just presuming that Davies would be a flop on the basis that inferior bowlers bowling at similar pace have failed in the Test arena is a pretty laughable argument AFAIC. At least give the bloke a chance before completely writing him off as a viable Test option. No-one's saying he's going to come in and blast Test batting line-ups away at an average of 20, but surely given the fact he's been magnificent in County Cricket since 2004 should make him deserving of at least an oppurtunity? Just setting yourself up to look an idiot by slagging someone off without firstly having seen them play on a number of ocassions and then secondly without having seen them given a chance on the big stage.

- Haa i love how you are complaining about the fact that i've bearly seen him bowl. At least i HAVE, where is your evidence of seeing him bowl?. I'm am the only on thus far who has had to give evidence - everyone else has just being getting their pants wet because of wonderful FC average.

Can i have you & all the CW posters list in detail where & when they have seen Davies bowl either @ a ground or on Skysports??

After all you where comparing Davies pace to Mohammad Asif. When Asif last night in the ODI vs AUS was consistently between 135-138 kmph...So you are in no position to even begin to question anything i said..

- Secondly i am not "presuming" he is not better than Lewis. IMO based on seeing both bowl i have never seen anything different about them as bowlers & i have always found Davies average when i first actually was made notice of it in early 2009 to be a gross aberration. Especially when you consider his FC average is comparable to the great Sir Alec Besder (an actual great medium pacer) - if that doesn't ring the alarm bells which it clearly hasn't for many on CW, nothing ever will

- Thirdly no their is absolutely nothing wrong with presuming he would be a flop at international level give that others bowlers have failed for the one millionth time because

(A) Superior medium pacer bowlers to Davies in international cricket have failed in test cricket in recent years such as Larsen & Strang. Medium pacers have been an extinct breed when it comes to "success" since the 1950s & 60s when the likes of Bedser, Appleyard, Shackleton, Ken Higgs last played.

(B) When great/excellent bowlers like McGrath, Fraser, Vaas, Clark, Pollock paced at the back end of their careers where the worst phases of their careers. In the cases of both Clark & Vaas we saw both AUS & SRI cut their test careers short because they became medium pace...

All of this is simply understanding past mistakes & the evolution of test cricket. Its is the same way picking Luke Wright would be a "presumed" flop & not learning from past selectorial errors of picking nothing county all-rounders to play tests like Watkinson SA 95/96, Hamilton SA 99/00, Flintoff SA 99/00 & SA 98, Ealham & Hollioke Ashes 97, Clarke BANG 03/04.

So based on this IMO he doesn't deserve an oppurtunity since it would be the ENG selectors not learning from past mistakes.

Finally i don't mind putting my head on a block for Davies likely lack of success as a test bowler since i did before all career with Saj Mahmood & when he came back into the ODI team for the recent ODIs vs SA. They where a good few on this site here who where saying Mahmood "deserved" his recall based on very good List A stats in 2009, while i said he was still trash given the average standard of List A cricket & i was proven correct. So i won't be losing any sleep over Davies likely success as a test bowler...

 

[aussie]

aussie, you state that the season you saw Davies bowl was also the season where he collected his worst figures. Do you think, therefore, that it is possible you saw him bowling below the standards he has set before and since?

TBH no. Since when i saw him in the CC match on Sky in Sept 09 & 08 i saw no difference from the bowler i saw play @ Blackpool CG in 2007. Which was IMO was a average looking county bowler.

 

[aussie]

One averages over 25, the over averages under 20 and has faced tougher opposition - and you're saying the guy who averages much more is at least as good as Davies. You've got one more reply before you go onto ignore. Even the biggest idiot should be able to see what abject ****e you're talking.

Any 2 things are comparable - what you're missing is that over that 6 year period, Davies has averaged less in 4 out of them (and not just a little bit less, it's been 7, 12, 12, and 13 runs per wicket) - it's not even close.

This is what you say when you have nothing to go buy except stats. Regardless of stats me seeing both Lewis & Davies bowl i have seen absolutely no difference in them as bowlers.

Tell me something about Davies bowling other than his stats. What skills does he have has a bowler that you two have seen that could make him a real wicket-taking force in test cricket outside a greentop??

Again this comes back to simple argument unless you & others starts accepting that DIV 1 cricket has holes in its quality, you will continue to push for Davies to play tests because of his high average.

Why exactly? One's a top order batsman, one's an all-rounder - square pegs and round holes anyone?

No one (Patel) is top-order batsman in List A cricket that would not be a good top-order batsman in ODI cricket. He would definately make sense batting @ 7 where he capable hitter & his left-arm spin would be a useful back-up to Swann.

The other one (Wright) is another one your typical joke/average ODI all-rounder akin to Dougie Brown, Matthew Fleming, Hollioke bro's (RIP Ben), Irani, Alleyne, Ealham that would be useless. (Although Ealham had his uses)

Although i can see why the selectors are persisting with Wright since having that 5th bowling option is needed. IMO Patel would make the current Flintoff-less Best ODI XI slightly better:

Trott
Strauss
KP
Colly
Morgan
Prior
Patel
Swann
Bresnan
Broad
Anderson

 

[marc71178]

Fail.

 

[aussie]

Fail.

Once you say it thats sarcasm for "Pass", since you have limited knowledge about cricket that you proven consistently in your years on this forum

You never have have a POV, but you are always the first to know who is right or wrong.


I DEFINATELY want you to describe in detail when & where you have seen Davies bowl????

 

[marc71178]

Fail because your concept of best ODI team includes Prior.