*Official* England in South Africa

[zaremba]

Did anyone see Smith's interview?

Apparently he thought the sound when he nicked the ball was his bottom hand on his bat handle

FTR I completely agree with Flower - no blame should be apportioned to Smith for not walking though in this CC era of double standards I'd love to see how everyone responded had it been Stuart Broad stood there shaking his head after clearly edging the ball to the keeper

I'm looking forward to seeing, say, Sachin Tendulkar being reprieved by a 3rd umpire with his volume turned up so I can have a good old whine against the double standards pervading modern officialdom, what with this and the same thing happening to England in the third Test too

 

[GIMH]

Pretty sure a different umpire gave Kevin Pietersen out for a slightly different shot once. IT'S A BLOODY CONSPIRACY WHEN WILL IT END

 

[zaremba]

Pretty sure a different umpire gave Kevin Pietersen out for a slightly different shot once. IT'S A BLOODY CONSPIRACY WHEN WILL IT END

It's the same rules, therefore a comparison is valid. The only two things that differ in each case are the skin colour and the treatment - therefore it's RACIALISTICALLY UNACCEPTABLE

 

[Manee]

and how has the reaction (on these forums or elsewhere), been remotely analogous of the Armageddon that some of those incidents caused, and that are still reverberating?

I did note Sydney-gate as the specific questioning of the position and quality of Bucknor's officiating - forms a pretty clear parallel, imo. Other incidents too seek to show the attitude, which I feel is prevalent, of English fans taking the moral highground, quick to laugh off calls of anger towards umpires, officials, etc, when they come from other teams, but keen to note when a decision does not go their way, despite the good fortune that they did have in the ball tampering scandel being swept under the carpet, somewhat.

 

[Manee]

Apparently he thought the sound when he nicked the ball was his bottom hand on his bat handle

Definitely rate him for saying that, despite the overwhelming evidence.

 

[GIMH]

I did note Sydney-gate as the specific questioning of the position and quality of Bucknor's officiating - forms a pretty clear parallel, imo. Other incidents too seek to show the attitude, which I feel is prevalent, of English fans taking the moral highground, quick to laugh off calls of anger towards umpires, officials, etc, when they come from other teams, but keen to note when a decision does not go their way, despite the good fortune that they did have in the ball tampering scandel being swept under the carpet, somewhat.

It's not the fact that it was given not out that anyone is up in arms about, though. Nobody has called out the on-field umpire for not giving it - that happens all the time. There was no referral system at Sydney so as far as I can see there is no parallel. In fact it's not even similar.

 

[zaremba]

I did note Sydney-gate as the specific questioning of the position and quality of Bucknor's officiating - forms a pretty clear parallel, imo. Other incidents too seek to show the attitude, which I feel is prevalent, of English fans taking the moral highground, quick to laugh off calls of anger towards umpires, officials, etc, when they come from other teams, but keen to note when a decision does not go their way, despite the good fortune that they did have in the ball tampering scandel being swept under the carpet, somewhat.

I'm genuinely surprised you say this. English fans are as ready to get angry with umpires as anyone else when they **** up, and always have been. What English fans don't tend to do, though, is to make ridiculous (and indeed defamatory) allegations of racism against officials who make decisions that we don't like. We don't call them biased, we just call them crap.

(The exception being some Pakistan umpires from the 1980s, whose obvious bias was not racial but purely "home town". And those days are now well behind us. I don't see any biased umpires in world cricket today).

As for the Bucknor business, I don't think that England fans objected to him being slated. Personally I thought both sides were on the receiving end of some shocking decisions, and India happened to fare worse than Australia. I said so on these forums too, and made the point (which I've made many times before) that Bucknor was not fit to be a Test umpire.

 

[zaremba]

Definitely rate him for saying that, despite the overwhelming evidence.

Yeah likewise. I'm starting to like Graeme Smith. I can't believe I'd ever say that, but it's true. He comes across really well in the post-match (and these days the mid-match) interviews, and his ability to score runs when his team really needs them can only command respect.

 

[zaremba]

I did note Sydney-gate as the specific questioning of the position and quality of Bucknor's officiating - forms a pretty clear parallel, imo. Other incidents too seek to show the attitude, which I feel is prevalent, of English fans taking the moral highground, quick to laugh off calls of anger towards umpires, officials, etc, when they come from other teams, but keen to note when a decision does not go their way, despite the good fortune that they did have in the ball tampering scandel being swept under the carpet, somewhat.

A minor exaggeration perhaps?

 

[grecian]

I did note Sydney-gate as the specific questioning of the position and quality of Bucknor's officiating - forms a pretty clear parallel, imo. Other incidents too seek to show the attitude, which I feel is prevalent, of English fans taking the moral highground, quick to laugh off calls of anger towards umpires, officials, etc, when they come from other teams, but keen to note when a decision does not go their way, despite the good fortune that they did have in the ball tampering scandel being swept under the carpet, somewhat.

What's Sydney-gate got to do with us, could care less TBH. We made a complaint about a terrible decision, which was seen to be wrong using new technology, complaints need to be made when such a farce occurs, then maybe they won't happen so frequently. I don't see the forum going into meltdown, accusations of racism, and calls for england to come home (good idea though, just declare this match a draw IMHO), which is why your incidents and accusation is just a vague miasma of nothingness, IMHO.

Every nation seems to be taking the moral highground constantly now "spirit of the game", and all that ****ing crap, why your pin-pointing us for no real reason is just a tad annoying.

Oz fans for instance were much more vocal over the other Daryl's finest moments even at Oval-gate.

 

[Uppercut]

Pretty sure a different umpire gave Kevin Pietersen out for a slightly different shot once. IT'S A BLOODY CONSPIRACY WHEN WILL IT END

I don't see where Manee is coming from either. In my experience English cricket fans genuinely are much more down to earth than a lot of those in the other nations, and it's been reflected in the CW response to this incident along with that of the general media. I don't know why it is, because their football fans are easily the most unbearable in the world. I guess minority sports don't invoke mass idiocy syndrome.

 

[Furball]

I can completely see your point, and on a literal reading of the law I don't think that shining the ball is legal - because by doing that you are altering the condition of the ball.

Hazarding a guess, the difference may be along the lines that when you're shining it you're basically preserving and maintaining it, whereas when you're gouging etc you're damaging it. But I realise this isn't a sustainable distinction - apart from anything else, picking the seam is closer to preserving the state of the ball than damaging it.

Yeah, that was my guess, but like you said, that should mean that picking the seam should be completely fine.

IMO, as long as you're not using any un-natural equipment (ie vaseline, bottle tops, razor blades, boot studs etc) you should be allowed to do whatever the **** you want with the ball.

edit: you're wrong wrt shining the ball:

3. The match ball - changing its condition
(a) Any fielder may
(i) polish the ball provided that no artificial substance is used and that such polishing wastes no time.
(ii) remove mud from the ball under the supervision of the umpire.
(iii) dry a wet ball on a towel.

(b) It is unfair for anyone to rub the ball on the ground for any reason, interfere with any of the seams or the surface of the ball, use any implement, or take any other action whatsoever which is likely to alter the condition of the ball, except as permitted in (a) above.

Source: Law 42 (Fair and unfair play) - Laws - Laws of Cricket - Laws & Spirit - Lord's

Although b) seems to somewhat contradict a)

IMO there's absolutely no reason to permit a) and outlaw b) They're both pretty much the same thing.

edit 2: You'll often see spinners rubbing their hands on the wicket, presumably to dry their hands and aid their grip.

I really don't see why there's a distinction between drying a wet ball on a towel, and rubbing the ball on the ground. There's a pretty reasonable argument that they'll achieve the same thing.

Anyway, I'm starting a new thread for this discussion, don't want to clutter up the tour thread any more.

 

[social]

Did anyone see Smith's interview?

Apparently he thought the sound when he nicked the ball was his bottom hand on his bat handle

FTR I completely agree with Flower - no blame should be apportioned to Smith for not walking though in this CC era of double standards I'd love to see how everyone responded had it been Stuart Broad stood there shaking his head after clearly edging the ball to the keeper

Smith obviously took note of the reaction to Symonds admitting to hitting it in Sydney and basically not giving a toss as he'd had plenty of bad decisions go against him in the past

IMO, it was refreshingly honest but the lunatic fringe obviously thought differently

 

[_Ed_]

Good start by England here.

 

[aussie]

Swann should always bowl with his shades on IMO. When he takes it off & bowls he scares me TBF.

 

[Manee]

Ooo, Saffas saved by the review once more. It is good that the review system would be discouraging over ambitious umpiring decisions like that one.

 

[Manee]

It's not the fact that it was given not out that anyone is up in arms about, though. Nobody has called out the on-field umpire for not giving it - that happens all the time. There was no referral system at Sydney so as far as I can see there is no parallel. In fact it's not even similar.

I'd say it is pretty similar, as the overwhelming evidence that it was out was similar with the Steve Bucknor-Symonds-Sharma dismissal and equally damaging, one may argue.

 

[Manee]

I'm genuinely surprised you say this. English fans are as ready to get angry with umpires as anyone else when they **** up, and always have been. What English fans don't tend to do, though, is to make ridiculous (and indeed defamatory) allegations of racism against officials who make decisions that we don't like. We don't call them biased, we just call them crap.

As for the Bucknor business, I don't think that England fans objected to him being slated. Personally I thought both sides were on the receiving end of some shocking decisions, and India happened to fare worse than Australia. I said so on these forums too, and made the point (which I've made many times before) that Bucknor was not fit to be a Test umpire.

Yes. It is not a strict inconsistency of English fans, but it is the smug attitude of English posters on these forums towards cries of racism (I'm agreeing that any and all calls of racism are ludicrous in world cricket) whereas cries of unbridled incompetance, leading to an official complaint, are not overtly morally superior.

 

[Manee]

A minor exaggeration perhaps?

Perhaps. It is hard to say what the umpiring consensus towards the actions of Anderson and Broad, is. To me, Anderson looked to be blatently breaking the rules by picking a piece of leather off the ball and looking to be scratching at it too (albeit gently) whereas Broad's actions may have been rightly aquitted as it would just seem as if he was stopping the ball and acting without thinking.

 

[Manee]

Every nation seems to be taking the moral highground constantly now "spirit of the game", and all that ****ing crap, why your pin-pointing us for no real reason is just a tad annoying.

Not pin pointing England, just making an observation from someone who lives in England.