*Official* UK off-season 2009/10

[Manee]

Must quietly note that I agree with aussie, here. Even a few months or weeks ago, I may have sided on the other side of the argument, though.

 

[Furball]

How you can trash Davies despite the fact he's got a clearly superior record to all his contemporaries is beyond me.

Only Jimmy Anderson has a domestic FC record that's remotely comparable.

 

[Goughy]

Yeah but Larsen didn't have the same FC success that Davies has had.

Do not bring common sense into the discussion

 

[morgieb]

On a different topic, hot rumour that Makhaya Ntini may be off to Middlesex as a Kolpak.

Also, Stuart Clark has signed with Kent. Hopefully this time it'll work.

 

[aussie]

Yeah but Larsen didn't have the same FC success that Davies has had.

As i've always said seeing Davies bowl i believe firmly that his excellent FC record is clearly more a indictment on our FC system, rather than i sign of any excellence on Davies part.

Seeing Larsen bowl in international cricket he was clearly far superior. Davies is not even better than Jon Lewis & he barely could pass as international quality in certain conditions.

Do not bring common sense into the discussion

He has a comparable FC record to Alec Bedser, so does mean he is ENGs greatest medium pacer since Bedser?

How you can trash Davies despite the fact he's got a clearly superior record to all his contemporaries is beyond me.

Only Jimmy Anderson has a domestic FC record that's remotely comparable.

Haa surely you not trying to equate that because his FC record is better than the fast bowlers in the ENG ATM, that would better bowler than none of Anderson, Broad, Onions, Sidebottom or even Bresnan in any way??. I hope not..

Unless you people accept/believe that his FC record as i've always said is a abberation. You all will continue to overate Davies & rate his potential test prospect.

 

[Richard]

Medium pacers like Davies have not had success in test cricket since the days of Alec Bedser. So i could care less how the likes of Davies, Jon Lewis do in FC cricket, they would never be internaitonal quality, so yes they are trash AFAIC.

The most recent example of a medium pacer like Davies playing playing tests was Gavin Larsen & he wasn't anywhere near test quality.

Alec Bedser was almost certainly quite a bit quicker than 70mph. If Godfey Evans had been a lesser-quality wicketkeeper and had thus stood back to him, and if the black-and-white film had rather been colour, we'd probably never have heard any of this nonsense about Bedser being slower than Ian Austin.

 

[Richard]

Haa surely you not trying to equate that because his FC record is better than the fast bowlers in the ENG ATM, that would better bowler than none of Anderson, Broad, Onions, Sidebottom or even Bresnan in any way??. I hope not..

There is absolutely no way that Tim Bresnan is a better bowler than Davies. Not even close. Bresnan has yet to really enjoy a good, never mind outstanding, season at county level. He's nothing more than a tidy and relatively quick bowler. A bit like Vasbert Drakes. But currently nowhere near so good.

Davies yes has of course benefited from bowling on some seam-friendly decks especially at the Riverside. And he may well not be a Test-standard bowler. But he's got a damn sight better chance of being so than several who've played in recent years, including Bresnan (who played only as a like-for-like-ish replacement for Flintoff).

As for Chris Tremlett, he's had no chance of being a Test-standard bowler all career so far and if I've almost given-up hope that he will ever have that chance now. He'll be 29 next summer. He's always had considerable potential but I think if it was going to be fulfilled it'd probably have happened by now.

 

[aussie]

There is absolutely no way that Tim Bresnan is a better bowler than Davies. Not even close. Bresnan has yet to really enjoy a good, never mind outstanding, season at county level. He's nothing more than a tidy and relatively quick bowler. A bit like Vasbert Drakes. But currently nowhere near so good.

Davies yes has of course benefited from bowling on some seam-friendly decks especially at the Riverside. And he may well not be a Test-standard bowler. But he's got a damn sight better chance of being so than several who've played in recent years, including Bresnan (who played only as a like-for-like-ish replacement for Flintoff).

Firstly lets be clear i dont believe Bresnan is likely to be test standard either, i dont rate him nor Davies which pretty much proves how bad of fast bowling depth is ATM.

But is certainly disagree that of the two that Davies is more likely than Bresnan to trouble international batsmen.

As for Chris Tremlett, he's had no chance of being a Test-standard bowler all career so far and if I've almost given-up hope that he will ever have that chance now. He'll be 29 next summer. He's always had considerable potential but I think if it was going to be fulfilled it'd probably have happened by now.

Injuries?. Plus how was Tremlett not test vs IND 07?

 

[aussie]

Alec Bedser was almost certainly quite a bit quicker than 70mph. If Godfey Evans had been a lesser-quality wicketkeeper and had thus stood back to him, and if the black-and-white film had rather been colour, we'd probably never have heard any of this nonsense about Bedser being slower than Ian Austin.

Haa ye. I'd say based on footage i've seen Bedser was probably 75-80 mph.

 

[Richard]

Firstly lets be clear i dont believe Bresnan is likely to be test standard either, i dont rate him nor Davies which pretty much proves how bad of fast bowling depth is ATM.

But is certainly disagree that of the two that Davies is more likely than Bresnan to trouble international batsmen.

Bresnan can't even trouble county batsmen. Davies at least can do that. County batsmen and international batsmen aren't two different species - one is just better than the other. If Davies troubles county batsmen more often than Bresnan, he'll also almost certainly trouble Test batsmen more than Bresnan. It may be that neither trouble said Test batsmen enough, but Davies damn well deserves a chance more than Bresnan does, even if Bresnan is a better batsman.

Injuries?. Plus how was Tremlett not test vs IND 07?

Tremlett bowled pretty average that series, albeit average while demonstrating obvious potential to be very good. Of course injuries have played their part in his lack of development (though they're certainly not the only reason behind it) but his continued injury-proneness is one of the main reasons why I don't really expect him to be all that good in the end.

 

[Richard]

Haa ye. I'd say based on footage i've seen Bedser was probably 75-80 mph.

So he wasn't a medium-pacer then was he? He was medium-fast, the same sort of speed as a later-career Glenn McGrath or Angus Fraser.

Medium-pace is Bryan Strang or, as you've already given the example of, Gavin Larsen.

 

[aussie]

Bresnan can't even trouble county batsmen. Davies at least can do that. County batsmen and international batsmen aren't two different species - one is just better than the other. If Davies troubles county batsmen more often than Bresnan, he'll also almost certainly trouble Test batsmen more than Bresnan.

Nope not based on our domestic standards. Since very good FC form doesn't awlays equate to likely international success in ENG.

By that reasoning on the batting front, Ramprakash should have been been a must pick in the test side for the past 2-3 years.

It may be that neither trouble said Test batsmen enough, but Davies damn well deserves a chance more than Bresnan does, even if Bresnan is a better batsman.

Nope for reasons aformentioned & the historical fact that medium pacers like him have not had any success in test test cricket since the Bedser era, ENG selectors should look past Davies & go for Bresnan or even Boyd Rankin who is in ENGs latest performance squad which is good news.

Tremlett bowled pretty average that series, albeit average while demonstrating obvious potential to be very good. Of course injuries have played their part in his lack of development (though they're certainly not the only reason behind it) but his continued injury-proneness is one of the main reasons why I don't really expect him to be all that good in the end.

Very harsh to say Tremlett bowled "very average" in that series. He rather bowled very solidly while obviously demonstrating obvious potential to be very good.

Yes injuries have hindered his progress since, but i dont see why that should be a reason why we should believe because of those injuries that will prevent him from finding back form if he can last the 2010 season for Hamphsire.

So he wasn't a medium-pacer then was he? He was medium-fast, the same sort of speed as a later-career Glenn McGrath or Angus Fraser.

When you say late career McGrath you can't be talking about Ashes 06/07 & WC 07 McGrath. Since pigeon wasn't that slow in his late-career days. He was bowling that slow in the IPL 2008 & 2009 recently.

Same thing with Fraser he wasn't that slow vs SA 98 & 99 WC IIRC.

Medium-pace is Bryan Strang or, as you've already given the example of, Gavin Larsen.

Yea from footage i think Bedser was that pace. Did Godfrey Evans ever stand back to Bedser?. From all i've read the keeper was basically always up to stumps to him..

 

[Furball]

Nope not based on our domestic standards. Since very good FC form doesn't awlays equate to likely international success in ENG.

By that reasoning on the batting front, Ramprakash should have been been a must pick in the test side for the past 2-3 years.

wtf, no he shouldn't have, as he was a serial Test failure. Davies is unproven at Test level, however his FC record is better than every other bowler in the country and he deserves a chance.

 

[aussie]

wtf, no he shouldn't have, as he was a serial Test failure.

So by the arguments Michael Bevan given that he was hamering home runs in domestic cricket for Tasmania didn't deserve another shot in the AUS test team?.

Bevan certainly did, but given AUS where so strong he never could break back into the team.

Lets not forget Ramps almost played in the last Ashes test & Ramps by most evidence was playing better in the last 2-3 than at any point of his test career.

Davies is unproven at Test level, however his FC record is better than every other bowler in the country and he deserves a chance.

Him having a better FC record than all the current fast bowlers in the test team doesn't mean anything given he clearly isn't better than any of them.

Unless you & others seriously believe that such medium pacer trundlers like Davies have chance at acutally being a success or having any use in modern day test cricket, this is useless argument.

 

[zaremba]

County batsmen and international batsmen aren't two different species - one is just better than the other.

Quite. And in many cases they're the same individuals. There are plenty of international-class batsmen in county cricket.

 

[marc71178]

So by the arguments Michael Bevan given that he was hamering home runs in domestic cricket for Tasmania didn't deserve another shot in the AUS test team?.

Unless there was evidence to prove that his previous failings had been conquered then no, he didn't deserve to.

Lets not forget Ramps almost played in the last Ashes test & Ramps by most evidence was playing better in the last 2-3 than at any point of his test career.

Based on what? His name was mentioned by lots of people in the media, but that doesn't mean that he was actually close to playing - especially since the selectors clearly had him behind Trott, and more than likely others.

Him having a better FC record than all the current fast bowlers in the test team doesn't mean anything given he clearly isn't better than any of them.

Says you, based on very minimal evidence. I'd suggest that the selectors know more about him, given that they've observed a lot more of the 2 of them (and based on your recent postings they know a lot more about Cricket than you)

Unless you & others seriously believe that such medium pacer trundlers like Davies have chance at acutally being a success or having any use in modern day test cricket, this is useless argument.

I'd say he's got more of a chance of making a success then some of the players you are calling for.

 

[GIMH]

Ramps wasn't close to playing, Flower & Giles have both stated he was never even considered

 

[Scaly piscine]

Seeing Larsen bowl in international cricket he was clearly far superior. Davies is not even better than Jon Lewis & he barely could pass as international quality in certain conditions.

Not even better than Jon Lewis? What planet are you on?

 

[aussie]

Unless there was evidence to prove that his previous failings had been conquered then no, he didn't deserve to.

Yes their was much. Bevan so caleld "short-comings" although it was their in another country if he wasn't AUS would have defiantely played more tests. Its just that AUS where so strong on the batting front depth wise Bevan really could get a chance.

Based on what? His name was mentioned by lots of people in the media, but that doesn't mean that he was actually close to playing - especially since the selectors clearly had him behind Trott, and more than likely others.

Yea. But the fact that his name was even mentioned & created such a strom before the Oval test, highlights a bigger at how weak our depth is ATM.

Ramps is probably still the best middle-order option behind the Trott/KP/Colly/Bell. But of course he wont be picked, Morgan should be next in line.

Says you, based on very minimal evidence. I'd suggest that the selectors know more about him, given that they've observed a lot more of the 2 of them (and based on your recent postings they know a lot more about Cricket than you)

Haa i love how you like to make things about "me". My opinion on Davies as potential international quality bowler is as good as anyone who has managed to see Davies bowl, instead of get all wet in their pants about his FC record.

Have you ever seen Davies bowl?. If you have are you going to seriously tell me now that even if didn't know his FC record that based on seeing him bowl, that he is by any means a better bowler than Anderson, Broad, Onions & Sidebottom because he has a superior FC record than them?

I'd say he's got more of a chance of making a success then some of the players you are calling for.

I have called for Boyd Rankin if ENG can get him & Tremlett (if he returns to full fitness this coming season) to be ahead of Davies in pecking order for back-up to main pace trio since they are clearly better IMO.

Now again marco, dont take my opinion on it. Have you ever seen Rankin & Tremlett bowl?. Well if it is yes, again do you think Davies is likely to be more of a threat to international than Rankin & Tremlett?

 

[Richard]

Nope not based on our domestic standards. Since very good FC form doesn't awlays equate to likely international success in ENG.

Regardless of whether FC success = Test success (and of course it doesn't, as it doesn't anywhere, England, India, New Zealand or wherever you care to mention), the fact is that a good domestic bowler has a better chance of Test success than an average-to-poor domestic bowler. An average-to-poor domestic bowler has basically zero chance of international success; a decent-to-good domestic bowler has some amount of chance of international success. Simple as that.

By that reasoning on the batting front, Ramprakash should have been been a must pick in the test side for the past 2-3 years.

Not at all. Totally different cases apply to players who have been tried and failed in the past and those who are yet to play or have only played a small number of games.

Nope for reasons aformentioned & the historical fact that medium pacers like him have not had any success in test test cricket since the Bedser era

UIMM Davies is capable of bowling 77-78mph, ie medium-fast, which was probably about the same speed Bedser bowled and certainly the same speed other successful Test bowlers have bowled in the not-very-distant past.

Very harsh to say Tremlett bowled "very average" in that series. He rather bowled very solidly while obviously demonstrating obvious potential to be very good.

And thus I didn't say he bowled "very average", I said he bowled "pretty average". He wasn't a massive threat for most of the time, but he was solid enough and showed that he could potentially be very good - which many had known since long before then anyway.

Yes injuries have hindered his progress since, but i dont see why that should be a reason why we should believe because of those injuries that will prevent him from finding back form if he can last the 2010 season for Hamphsire.

Not of enormous importance but I've despaired of him ever really cracking it because most injury-prone 29-year-olds have had their chance come and go.

When you say late career McGrath you can't be talking about Ashes 06/07 & WC 07 McGrath. Since pigeon wasn't that slow in his late-career days. He was bowling that slow in the IPL 2008 & 2009 recently.

Same thing with Fraser he wasn't that slow vs SA 98 & 99 WC IIRC.

Fraser in 1998 and 1999 was bowling at 78mph or so at best. Ditto McGrath in the last 2-3 years of his career. Both at the end of their careers were medium-fast and no more. McGrath had beyond all question been quicker earlier; Fraser probably had (but had never been timed before as 1998 was the first time reliable speedguns were used).

Yea from footage i think Bedser was that pace. Did Godfrey Evans ever stand back to Bedser?. From all i've read the keeper was basically always up to stumps to him..

Bedser was almost beyond question quicker than 70-71mph. Wicketkeepers in those days were far quicker to stand up to the stumps to medium-fast bowlers; in the 1970s and 1980s that trend was largely lost, before recently ODIs have seen it regained. Some of the best wicketkeepers would and now once more will even stand-up to fast-medium (~80-84mph) seamers if they're short enough.