Harris vs. Hauritz vs. Swann

[Uppercut]

Still Murali everytime for me although I would also take Imran Tahir bowlng like he did for Hampshire in 2008.

Interesting to see where Mendis fits in all of this, a tad worried about how is going to go for us, am just hoping at the moment that the county batsmen will be confused by him m but has looked very unthreatening of late.

Yeah, he's in a bit of a rough patch. Second season syndrome.

I don't think it's batsmen figuring him out. I saw him up close when he was warming up during the World Twenty20- I don't personally think it matters how many videos you've studied or how many times you've faced him, those variations surely can't be picked with enough confidence to play him from the hand. He just seems to have lost a bit of form, he's not getting any turn anymore and his accuracy has almost completely left him. It doesn't matter which way the ball's supposed to spin if it's not turning anyway. Being in and out of the team can't be helping matters either.

I can't see him being anything other than a huge success in county cricket, and I suspect the experience will do him a lot of good too. As for now, all we can do is await further developments.

 

[Pothas]

Yeah, he's in a bit of a rough patch. Second season syndrome.

I don't think it's batsmen figuring him out. I saw him up close when he was warming up during the World Twenty20- I don't personally think it matters how many videos you've studied or how many times you've faced him, those variations surely can't be picked with enough confidence to play him from the hand. He just seems to have lost a bit of form, he's not getting any turn anymore and his accuracy has almost completely left him. It doesn't matter which way the ball's supposed to spin if it's not turning anyway. Being in and out of the team can't be helping matters either.

I can't see him being anything other than a huge success in county cricket, and I suspect the experience will do him a lot of good too. As for now, all we can do is await further developments.

Yeah I think confidance seems to be a big issue, have seen him quite a bit of late and it seems very low which is understandable, the stint with us should do him some good if he gets some wickets early on, just hope the Rose Bowl pitch has a bit more in it this year, was so flat last season which was one of the big reasons that Tahir did not do quite as well.

 

[Matt79]

Yeah, he's in a bit of a rough patch. Second season syndrome.

I don't think it's batsmen figuring him out. I saw him up close when he was warming up during the World Twenty20- I don't personally think it matters how many videos you've studied or how many times you've faced him, those variations surely can't be picked with enough confidence to play him from the hand. He just seems to have lost a bit of form, he's not getting any turn anymore and his accuracy has almost completely left him. It doesn't matter which way the ball's supposed to spin if it's not turning anyway. Being in and out of the team can't be helping matters either.

I can't see him being anything other than a huge success in county cricket, and I suspect the experience will do him a lot of good too. As for now, all we can do is await further developments.

So far as there is a tradition for Iverson/carrrom bowlers, it's a tradition of spectacular early success, and possible continued success against lesser batsmen, but equally spectacular crashing-back to the field once people get the hang of what you're doing.

 

[Richard]

Mendis isn't just an Iverson\Gleeson\Loudon type spinner though - he has more to him than just the conventional Off-Break and the "Carrom".

 

[Uppercut]

True, but even England had him under control during the Champions Trophy. The big change is that he simply isn't turning the ball anymore.

 

[Migara]

Still Murali everytime for me although I would also take Imran Tahir bowlng like he did for Hampshire in 2008.

Interesting to see where Mendis fits in all of this, a tad worried about how is going to go for us, am just hoping at the moment that the county batsmen will be confused by him m but has looked very unthreatening of late.

There are few unspoken names here.

1. Shakib Al Hasan
2. Rangana Herath
3, Saeed Ajmal

I think these three as as good as or better than Hauritz/ Swann / Harris, particularly Shakib and Saeed.

The new SL spinner Suraj Randiv also looks very promising. He bowled exceptionally well against rampaging Indian batsmen.

Mendis I think is done for the time being. If I was a SL coach, I would ask Mendis to go back to nets and to develop an off break as a stock ball, and a arm ball too. Then his carom ball will be very very dangerous. But now with the strain on the finger, it's not turning as much as it used to be.

 

[Migara]

So far as there is a tradition for Iverson/carrrom bowlers, it's a tradition of spectacular early success, and possible continued success against lesser batsmen, but equally spectacular crashing-back to the field once people get the hang of what you're doing.

The catch is to use it as Herath does. Sparingly, mixed with orthodox finger spin.

 

[Richard]

True, but even England had him under control during the Champions Trophy. The big change is that he simply isn't turning the ball anymore.

That's moreorless what I was saying. Matt Of '79 was saying, in reply to your post about not turning the ball, that there's precedent for Mendis-type bowlers to go downhill; I said that, really, there is no precedent for any Mendis-type bowler to do anything, because there has never been a Mendis-type bowler before, same way there's never been a Murali-type bowler and might well never be again.

 

[aussie]

I know next to nothing about Clive Eksteen and he barely played anyway so I'll gladly not comment on him;

I haven't seen much of him myself. I saw him play in one test vs IND 2000 & I got an old tape in my house of the England tour to SA 95/96 with him bowling & he looked a better left-arm spinners than Harris for sure IMO.

Adams was clearly pretty hopeless and not surprisingly so either, but he's a wristspinner and that applies to most of them.

As others have said i see no reason how Adams was hopeless. He wasn't no great of course, but he had his periods when he threatening & could get get good batsmen out with beauties.

One could argue Symcox was > Harris but it's debateable.

For me Symcox has is clearly ahead of Harris & is the best SA spinner since readmission to date.

There's no way I'd put either Boje or Henderson as > Harris. = at best.

Boje definately better than Harris for me (not by a massive margin or anything), turned the ball much more. But as i said Henderson (based on what i've seen of him in the 2001/02 tests vs AUS & the may times i've see him in county cricket) & Harris are probably about the same.

 

[Hurricane]

There are few unspoken names here.

1. Shakib Al Hasan
2. Rangana Herath
3, Saeed Ajmal

I think these three as as good as or better than Hauritz/ Swann / Harris, particularly Shakib and Saeed.

The new SL spinner Suraj Randiv also looks very promising. He bowled exceptionally well against rampaging Indian batsmen.

Mendis I think is done for the time being. If I was a SL coach, I would ask Mendis to go back to nets and to develop an off break as a stock ball, and a arm ball too. Then his carom ball will be very very dangerous. But now with the strain on the finger, it's not turning as much as it used to be.

I think it is tough to throw in Ajmal into the mix because he has a doosra and hence has a huge advantage. If we are just comparing apples to apples - I think it should be orthodox spinners without a doosra. I didn't invent this thread though so this is my two cents only.

I will compare Herath to Vettori though. I think Herath looked far more dangerous in the NZ vs SL series and was getting twice as much spin as Vettori. Right now I would rather have Herath as my bowler before Vettori. I wouldn't do a trade though as Vettori is a better batsman but that is not what we are here to discuss.
I also like the look of Herath against Hauritz.
I am not sure about Swann vs Herath though. It is tough to compare their averages as both of them have not played that many tests.
So just by looking at them I would say that Herath gets more turn but that Swann appears more wiley. But that is just my opinion from having seen them just a few times.

 

[Uppercut]

That's moreorless what I was saying. Matt Of '79 was saying, in reply to your post about not turning the ball, that there's precedent for Mendis-type bowlers to go downhill; I said that, really, there is no precedent for any Mendis-type bowler to do anything, because there has never been a Mendis-type bowler before, same way there's never been a Murali-type bowler and might well never be again.

Yeah, I was responding to Matt. I think I sit somewhere in the middle- I wouldn't say there's no precedent, but there isn't enough that we can use the past to predict the future with any confidence in Mendis's case. All we can do is wait and see.

 

[Uppercut]

There are few unspoken names here.

1. Shakib Al Hasan
2. Rangana Herath
3, Saeed Ajmal

I think these three as as good as or better than Hauritz/ Swann / Harris, particularly Shakib and Saeed.

The new SL spinner Suraj Randiv also looks very promising. He bowled exceptionally well against rampaging Indian batsmen.

Mendis I think is done for the time being. If I was a SL coach, I would ask Mendis to go back to nets and to develop an off break as a stock ball, and a arm ball too. Then his carom ball will be very very dangerous. But now with the strain on the finger, it's not turning as much as it used to be.

TBF the thread starter just said "Harris vs. Hauritz vs. Swann". They didn't say anything about these three being the best in the world or there not being any other comparable spinners.

 

[Hurricane]

Some people are discussing the other spinners of this world here too. I will start another thread so that we can officially discuss other spinners without hijacking this thread.

 

[Richard]

Yeah, I was responding to Matt.

Ah, I see. When you're replying to a post which isn't the one directly above yours, it helps avoid confusion if you use the Quote button.

 

[Richard]

I haven't seen much of him myself. I saw him play in one test vs IND 2000 & I got an old tape in my house of the England tour to SA 95/96 with him bowling & he looked a better left-arm spinners than Harris for sure IMO.

I've only seen one still shot of him (I did follow the 1999/2000 Ind-vs-SA Test and thought "who the &%$£'s he?" but didn't actually watch any of it - before then I'd never remotely heard of him) and even from that it's clear he was much more classically elegant than Harris but as I've said before a lot of people confuse classically elegant with effective. From what I can see from Eksteen's record he appears to be similar to Harris in terms of accuracy and equally bereft of spin.

As others have said i see no reason how Adams was hopeless. He wasn't no great of course, but he had his periods when he threatening & could get get good batsmen out with beauties.

Very rarely could and did he do so. Adams was extraordinary but certainly not very good.

For me Symcox has is clearly ahead of Harris & is the best SA spinner since readmission to date.

A not-unreasonable viewpoint, and certainly he's way ahead of Harris right now. Whether he remains so remains to be seen.

Boje definately better than Harris for me (not by a massive margin or anything), turned the ball much more. But as i said Henderson (based on what i've seen of him in the 2001/02 tests vs AUS & the may times i've see him in county cricket) & Harris are probably about the same.

Neither Boje nor Henderson spun the ball much and Boje achieved very little Test success outside real Bunsen surfaces. Henderson of course achieved pretty well no success at all even though he was not given any significant opportunity. I don't consider either are superior to Harris as bowlers; Boje is clearly a much better cricketer due to his ability with the bat.

 

[Sylvester]

I used to think that Vettori > Hauritz - but I think Hauritz gives it more a rip than Vettori. His accuracy is acceptable as well. And Vettori doesn't have a good history on 4th/5th day wickets either.

I like the loop that Hauritz gets.

Is it generally accepted that Vettori is >> than all of the three spinners highlighted in this thread?

Vettori has the variation for mind, he might not get as much turn but hes got a lot of batters out with his arm ball. I haven't seen too much of Vettori on the 45th/5th day wickets but he has a number of 5 fers which indicates he can take a team apart.

 

[FBU]

Wickets of left handers

Swann 64%
Hauritz 45%
Vettori 30%
Harbhajan 30%
Harris 28%
Kaneria 27%
Murali 23%

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah, I was responding to Matt. I think I sit somewhere in the middle- I wouldn't say there's no precedent, but there isn't enough that we can use the past to predict the future with any confidence in Mendis's case. All we can do is wait and see.

Yeh, let's not forget the probably fairly numerous blokes who've tried to bowl similar types of deliveries but haven't even played FC cricket. Takes a special kind.

Myself, Mendis' biggest asset is his ability to land the ball in the channel. If he rebuilds his game from that base, reckon he'll be alright. It's amazing how few wickets gets from his big-turning balls, they tend to set up the batters for the perfectly straight one more than anything.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, that's true. He was brilliant at using flight too. Would set bowlers up for the tossed up delivery rather than varying his pace every ball, as is the current style. It was amazing how often they'd misread his length and get out to the one flighted ball every five or six overs.

When he was running good a lot of people commented on how one delivery that could turn big would make him such a better bowler. I think that's quite evident now, especially on flatter pitches.

 

[Migara]

Wickets of left handers

Swann 64%
Hauritz 45%
Vettori 30%
Harbhajan 30%
Harris 28%
Kaneria 27%
Murali 23%

In the cases of Vettori, Harris and Kaneria it should be wickets against right handers. Because these bowlers take the ball away from RHB compared to Swann or Hauritz. Better would be to comparethe ratio between % of RHB / LHB taken divided by % of RHB / LHB in cricket.

From the 1st test onwards, RHB have played 53616 innings That is 78.4% out of 68377 innings

Then we can re arrange the data like this

Name  	  	  	% TTBAB  	Ratio
Swann  	  	  	64  	  	[B]2.96[/B]
Hauritz  	  	45  	  	[B]2.08[/B]
Vettori  	  	70  	  	0.89
Harbhajan  	  	30  	  	[B]1.39[/B]
Harris   	  	72  	  	0.92
Kaneria    	  	73  	  	0.93
Murali   	  	23  	  	1.06

TTBAB - % wickets taking the bal away from the batsman. i.e. SLA vs RHB. OB vs LHB

Swann, Hauritz and HArbhajan are much better in taking the ball away from batsmen and dismissing them.