• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

The CW50 - No.4

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Indeed. Always laughed at McGrath when things were going against him, except that Sarwan thing - that was really poor. He used to mutter and curse under his breath with that head shake.

Sometimes the reactions of players are pure comedy gold - one of the best was Wasim's reaction after Saqlain got hit for a boundary off the last ball of an ODI in Melbourne. Wasim had just gone up to him and told him to make sure he bowled fast and full, whereupon the obligatory slow half tracker was sent forth and disappeared. The look on Wasim's face was priceless.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
That's irrelevant to the point though.

If you inserted Warne's charisma and blonde hair and ability to cheat on his wife into Murali you'd still find that the case.

So either way it wouldn't matter how charismatic Murali is.
Trying to imagine Murali with blonde hair plugs. Frightening! :blink:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
It's all subjective though anyway so no need to really take it seriously.

But your point is right, forget average, Warne wasn't two times better than any other great bowler or even spinner, but Bradman was two times better than Sobers, Viv, Sachin, Chappell, Hobbs etc. as batsmen.

Hence why he is simply the greatest.
Well, since I am usually a stats man this is hard to quantify, but I'd say Warne was two times more effective than any other bowler I've ever seen when the match was at it's most critical stage. I've never seen a bowler change a match on it's head as much as I have with Warne. That's simply not going to come up in the stats.

I agree with your point re Bradman. Dude's just a freak.

With regards to Murali and Warne; well their whole approach was different. Warne was far more aggressive and went after batsmen like fast bowlers would. Murali was more an asphyxiating bowler who knew with time he'd get you out.
 
Last edited:

bagapath

International Captain
With regards to Murali and Warne; well their whole approach was different. Warne was far more aggressive and went after batsmen like fast bowlers would. Murali was more an asphyxiating bowler who knew with time he'd get you out.
this would be true if their strike rates were significantly different. in reality, they both got their victims every ten overs (SR 57.9 vs 58.8 minus minnows). you can make this distinction between warne and oreilly or warne and grimmett coz tiger and clarrie would get their pound of flesh in their 12th over, respective SR 69.6 & 67.1. but murali was as aggressive as warne and struck at the same rate.
 
Last edited:

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
this would be true if their strike rates were significantly different. in reality, they both got their victims every ten overs. you can make this distinction between warne and oreilly or warne and grimmett coz tiger and clarrie would get their pound of flesh in their 12th over. but murali was as aggressive as warne and struck at the same rate.
Their strike-rates have little to do with their approach. Murali can bowl 50 overs and many times will get a cluster towards the end whereas Warne would push on from ball one to make something happen and teeter out towards the end.

Also, the fact that Murali has played on far more receptive pitches at home whereas Warne has played on largely unreceptive pitches hides the gap between their SRs. Look at their away record, for instance; exlcuding minnows, almost 8 SR points difference.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com
 

bagapath

International Captain
so you were trying to say warne had more of a fast bowler's approach in overseas tests compared to murali who is much much more aggressive on his home grounds? my bad, I thought you meant it overall. ;)
 
Last edited:

bagapath

International Captain
Their strike-rates have little to do with their approach. Murali can bowl 50 overs and many times will get a cluster towards the end whereas Warne would push on from ball one to make something happen and teeter out towards the end.
not true at all. murali has taken a higher percentage of top order wickets compared to warne. and he has also dismissed more of the top order batsmen under their career batting averages. which means he struck more frequently at the top and he struck them down faster than warne.

Tests - bowling cricket at Cricinfo's It Figures blog

see... it is absolutely fine to say warne had a fast bowler's attitude and he turned several matches around in short periods of play. but so did murali. to praise one you dont have to relegate the other to a different category when it is clear they both were in the same bracket
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
so you were trying to say warne had more of a fast bowler's approach in overseas tests compared to murali who is much much more aggressive on his home grounds? my bad, I thought you meant it overall. ;)
No, but that their overall SRs are affected by their home tests of which Murali has easily the better pitches. I hope you are kidding with the above, because you often miss pretty elementary stuff with regards to the stats.

not true at all. murali has taken a higher percentage of top order wickets compared to warne. and he has also dismissed more of the top order batsmen under their career batting averages. which means he struck more frequently at the top and he struck them down faster than warne.

Tests - bowling cricket at Cricinfo's It Figures blog

see... it is absolutely fine to say warne had a fast bowler's attitude and he turned several matches around in short periods of play. but so did murali. to praise one you dont have to relegate the other to a different category when it is clear they both were in the same bracket
Yep, but that's highly flawed argument, and even then the difference is minimal. For Warne would come down when there were regularly 2-3 wickets gone meaning he'd only have 7 or so wickets to aim at, hence the proportion of top-order wickets he could take was far smaller than Murali - who would come plenty of times with little to no wickets taken. That natural fact makes it nigh impossible for Warne to take as many upper order wickets, yet the difference is only 4%. You can actually use this argument for Warne's aggressiveness. So you're pretty much wrong in this.

And no, Murali did not take the upper order wickets faster...in fact the stats to measure how much a certain bowler bowled to a batsman have been introduced only recently. It also has nothing to do with relegation or promotion. The two were completely different in their approach and anyone who watched their game would attest to that.
 
Last edited:

G.I.Joe

International Coach
You should have seen the look on my face as I rolled on the floor laughing when #6 ducked at a ball from #13 and was LBW.

But it's not just for that reason that I thnk McGrath should be rated ahead of Sachin :).
I had Bradman at 1, and McGrath at 2 :) If you're trying to insinuate bias, you're barking up the wrong tree. I rate McGrath high because he has had the handle on virtually every player he's come up against. Seeing the way Warne has been handled every time he's played India doesn't give me the confidence to rate him this high, aura alone won't get him that high for me, at least not in the top 5.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I had Bradman at 1, and McGrath at 2 :) If you're trying to insinuate bias, you're barking up the wrong tree. I rate McGrath high because he has had the handle on virtually every player he's come up against. Seeing the way Warne has been handled every time he's played India doesn't give me the confidence to rate him this high, aura alone won't get him that high for me, at least not in the top 5.
Nah, if you wanted someone who really had no flaws on his record you'd put Marshall at #2. McGrath struggled with NZ and S.Africa at home and Sri Lanka and Pakistan away IIRC.
 

G.I.Joe

International Coach
Nah, if you wanted someone who really had no flaws on his record you'd put Marshall at #2. McGrath struggled with NZ and S.Africa at home and Sri Lanka and Pakistan away IIRC.
Fair enough. I've never analysed Marshall's record that closely. They were close enough as Test bowlers, but McGrath was easily the better ODI player, and that has always been enough for me to rank him ahead of Marshall tbh. It was pretty amazing the number of times he's had the last laugh against Lara and Sachin, especially in crucial games.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
If there's been controversy regarding Marshall so low, or some saying Sachin and Warne were too high, I think the Sobers nay-sayers may be out big time when Sobers is named, whether its 2 or 3. :ph34r:
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
I am one of the regular "nay-sayers" with regards to "Sobers the all-rounder" but not Sobers the cricketer. One of the greatest batsman of all time, one of the greatest fielders of all time, one of the greatest all-rounders of all-time and one of the true great characters of all time...I have him at #3.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
ikki. i love it when you get personal like this. can see the steam coming out of your ears.. but let me assure you i didnt want to anger you. it is all your own doing.

ok. here is the deal. you teach me stats. i will teach you how to get rid of your australian bias. cool? :):):)
I am sorry you took it as insulting because it wasn't meant to be. Often you argue points which, at least to me, seem so elementary that it shouldn't need explaining. I was truly wondering whether you were kidding or completely missed my point.

imagine the 4% difference in favor of warne and how much you would have jumped!!!
Of course I would have. Because if those facts I addressed still existed and yet he overcame them to be ahead by 4% then that would be quite the feat. Imagine a bowler who bowls 5 less overs than another bowler but takes 1 wicket more per match regardless - that's kinda what it would be like.
 

bagapath

International Captain
anyone remember where border showed up on the list? was looking at the overseas records with regards to the ongoing conversation with ikki and just saw AB has a overseas average of 56, better than sachin, dravid, waugh, gavaskar, g.chappell and richards and way better than ponting and lara. and this too from an era which had great pace bowlers outside australia as well. what a rockstar he was!
 
Last edited:

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
you claimed warne's captaincy in IPL was a big deal. and then changed into figurehead or whatever it was that gave you a way out. i had to step in to point out your mistake though. so dont feel burdened about fixing me. you need a lot of help too. and i am always there for you.
This is what I dislike about the way you post. You think that because I post something, I am inherently biased (of course, we all are, but you think it's a conscious thing with me) and then you go making claims like the above or in other threads. My point re Warne and RR had little to do with his captaincy record anything like that, merely what he brought as a leader and how he made the unexpected happen (whether in a weak team or tough situation) - to which you too agreed. Of course I wasn't trying to equate a T20 tourney to Imran leading Pakistan.

Last time when we looked at the average of batsmen against certain bowlers you were so wrong and yet you again came and called me biased. Then when there was the opportunity to transform the glaring mistake you had made into something purposeful, I treated it as if you had simply made a mistake. So I am a much bigger man than you give me credit for and even though I continuously mention that I have respect for you, you try to cut my posts down with this same non-sense again and again. My patience is running out in that regard.

as long as you add a qualifier like "over-seas tests" then there will always be certain combination of situations in which warne would have a better SR than murali. but overall, there is nothing between them. and if you include minnows, because removing minnows is a condition we have created ourselves otherwise technically all tests against them are tests too, murali has a better strike rate than warne and takes his wickets at a better average too. I am not going down that route to claim murali as more aggressive of the two. because i see them as very very similar bowlers in terms of dominating and beating any opponent. so you simply cant claim that warne was more aggressive and murali played the patient game. taking their overall careers into consideration, it is not true at all.
That isn't just a qualifier. I wasn't saying Warne had a better SR only in away tests; I am saying Warne was better overall. That the fact that you looked at their overall SRs is misleading because half the tests they play are at home; where one has much benefit and one has very little. Yet the fact that they are so close is a testament to Warne's striking power. I tried to show you that difference by showing you their away SR - where they face all the same teams in their countries apart from their own - and Warne was almost 8 points superior. That is not a small amount.

Whether you think they are the same or not is not my concern. You are entitled to your opinion. However, claiming that their SRs define how they approached their cricket was flawed and hence my reply.
 
Last edited:

Top