Is Daniel Vettori the best 'all-rounder' at the moment?

[Mister Wright]

Vettori might not be better at each discipline than Kallis, however I think he uses both, combined, more effectively than Kallis, or at least his ability as an allrounder is more utilised for New Zealand than Kallis' is for South Africa.

 

[morgieb]

LOL, I thought for an all-rounder you needed to bowl good.

And bat in the top 7.

 

[Jarquis]

Yeah, probably why Vettori bats at 6 now.

 

[morgieb]

Oh dear. Thought he batted 8 for some reason.

 

[Jarquis]

He's only recently moved to 6 tbf. Very recently

 

[aussie]

Counts against Kallis in regard to getting five wicket hauls that in his time of bowling, South Africa have always had world class seamers who monopolise wicket taking.

Not his entire career no. In the late 90s up until W1 2001 Kallis was a excellent bowler, capable of even opening in the bowling.

When Donald declined/retired & Pollock became gash in the middle of this decade - Kallis also was also poor. You then had a period around 2005/06 when Ntini/Nel peaked at the same time, then Steyn came along & SA had a well balanced 5-man attack between 2006-2009. Kallis for the last 6 years has been very much a 5th bowler. He certainly isn't good enough to be part of 4-man attack as was shown is SA recent test vs AUS in capetown.

And comparing him to Bravo and Watson is laughable. In the last 29 tests (3 years), Kallis has averaged under 29 with the ball.

Don't think those stats tell the whole truth tbf. I'd say Bravo is more likely to take 5 wicket haul againts a top side than Kallis is currently.

Watson & Kallis is about even. Kallis would probably use swinging conditions better than Watson. But Watson would be more effective on a flat surface since he can reverse swing the ball.

Same period where Dale Steyn has taken 138 test wickets @ less than 21 and Ntini 153 @ 27. How many wickets can Kallis realistically get after those men have had their fill?

Thats one way of looking at it. But just seeing Kallis bowling in the last few years, if he was needed to step up in the absense of one of the main strike bowlers, his bowling generally has not been above a solid 5th bowling option.

Again i use the recent Capetown test vs AUS. M Morkel was dropped & Kallis had to take up extra responsibilty as 3rd seamer & he looked very average. Even A Morkel bowled more overs than him.

Bit easier for Vettori to manage five wicket hauls when you routinely operate at one end, bowl half of your sides overs and for the best part of the time, are missing your leading strike bowler.

Bit of rough generalisation of how Vettori workloads goes there. I'm no expert on NZ cricket, but i struggle to believe Vettori generally bowls half NZ's over per test routinely like what Murali does for SRI - especially in NZ conditions. Maybe when NZ tour the subcontinet.

But as i said overall its grossly unfair to compare a fast-bowling allrounder to a spin bowling all-rounder. Since unless that spinner is Warne/Murali/O'Reilly his likely effect is likey to be on 4th/5th day when the pitch begins to deteriorate.

 

[kingdamo]

Martin Guptill tbh .

 

[aussie]

Got one against Bangladesh last year didn't he?

Againts a quality oppositon rather, which vs ENG 03. By default performances vs BANG dont count unless its Gilchrist 06 or Inzi 03.

 

[Uppercut]

Vettori might not be better at each discipline than Kallis, however I think he uses both, combined, more effectively than Kallis, or at least his ability as an allrounder is more utilised for New Zealand than Kallis' is for South Africa.

Hmm... nah, Kallis is properly important for South Africa too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And bat in the top 7.

Like Shaun Pollock right?

 

[Simon]

Maybe someone can help me out here, was having this conversation with a mate earlier and we couldn't think of anyone with 5 or more test centuries that has a lower batting average than Vettori. I don't mean to discredit him, just something we were trying to come up with, is there actually anyone?

 

[Jarquis]

Maybe someone can help me out here, was having this conversation with a mate earlier and we couldn't think of anyone with 5 or more test centuries that has a lower batting average than Vettori. I don't mean to discredit him, just something we were trying to come up with, is there actually anyone?

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Mo Ashraful, Boucher, Flower and Maclean

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Maybe someone can help me out here, was having this conversation with a mate earlier and we couldn't think of anyone with 5 or more test centuries that has a lower batting average than Vettori. I don't mean to discredit him, just something we were trying to come up with, is there actually anyone?

Marky Mark.

EDIT: Just beaten to the mark. See what I did there?

 

[Jarquis]

Marky Mark.

EDIT: Just beaten to the mark. See what I did there?

I do. Boucher was my first instinct, didn't think Ashraful had managed 5 tons, Flower slipped my mind and Maclean who?

 

[TT Boy]

Not his entire career no. In the late 90s up until W1 2001 Kallis was excellent bowling, capable of even opening in the bowling even.

When Donald declined/retired & Pollock became gash in the middle of this decade - Kallis also was also poor. You then had a period around 2005/06 when Ntini/Nel peaked at the same time, then Steyn came along & SA had a well balanced 5-man attack between 2006-2009. Kallis for the last 6 years has been very much a 5th bowler. He certainly isn't good enough to be part of 4-man attack as was shown is SA recent test vs AUS in capetown.

Watson & Kallis is about even. Kallis would probably use swinging conditions better than Watson. But Watson would be more effective on a flat surface since he can reverse swing the ball.



Thats one way of looking at it. But just seeing Kallis bowling in the last few years, if he was needed to step up in the absense of one of the main strike bowlers, his bowling generally has not been above a solid 5th bowling option.

Again i use the recent Capetown test vs AUS. M Morkel was dropped & Kallis had to take up extra responsibilty as 3rd seamer & he looked very average. Even A Morkel bowled more overs than him.

Can't multi quote...

Kallis stepped it up in England when Steyn struggled and was subsequently ruled out of the series due to injury.

Interesting you bring up the Cape Town test, that's the same test where the Australian bowling attack haemorrhaged over 600 runs in one innings and it was played a slow turner. If Mitchell Johnson, Ronald McDonald and House were looking good on it, then that would be a valid argument but they struggled.

3rd Test: South Africa v Australia at Cape Town, Mar 19-22, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

And Kallis can reverse it. He did it to great success during the England series last summer.

 

[Uppercut]

Aussie in talking bollocks shocker.

 

[aussie]

Can't multi quote...

Kallis stepped it up in England when Steyn struggled and was subsequently ruled out of the series due to injury.

He stepped up in the sense that he took on an extra bowling load, given that Morkel & Ntini began to bowl crap as the series went on. But his bowling didn't have the same edge like in 2001 when Donald was injured during the Bridgetown test vs WI & he took that 6 wicket haul.

He just did his usual job as 5th bowler & chipped in with some useful wickets (in ENG last year where it always swings, that wast perfect for him). Which he has been always doing for the majority of the last 5 to 6 years. As i said, he is not good enough to play as part of 4-man attack.

Interesting you bring up the Cape Town test, that's the same test where the Australian bowling attack haemorrhaged over 600 runs in one innings and it was played a slow turner. If Mitchell Johnson, Ronald McDonald and House were looking good on it, then that would be a valid argument but they struggled.

Not sure how AUS bowling performance on that flat Capetown deck, is related to Kallis not being good enough to play as part of 4-man attack, as the game pretty much proved?

3rd Test: South Africa v Australia at Cape Town, Mar 19-22, 2009 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

And Kallis can reverse it. He did it to great success during the England series last summer.

Dont recall ever seeing Kallis reverse swing the ball tbh in the test i've seen him in, especially last summer vs ENG. His wickets was mostly via conventional out & inswing.

Using a recent example when SAF toured IND last year where to be successful as quick, you gotta reverse it. Big Jacq was reduced to just being a stock bowler, he never reversed it. While Watson when AUS toured IND, was getting BIG reverse swing.

Aussie in talking bollocks shocker.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

He stepped up in the sense that he took on an extra bowling load, given that Morkel & Ntini began to bowl crap as the series went on. But his bowling didn't have the same edge like in 2001 when Donald was injured during the Bridgetown test vs WI & he took that 6 wicket haul.

Surely it's stating the obvious that the pitch played a fairly significant role in the disparity between the two Tests...

 

[Uppercut]

Kallis was awesome in England and pretty good home and away against Australia. There was one particularly impressive spell against the Aussies in the first test when South Africa were in deep ****. He manages to be a very consistent bowler while still being capable of occasionally stepping it up for a particular decisive spell. What always impresses me is the list of players he's dismissed. For someone so often thought of as a workmanlike or honest bowler, he gets a lot of seriously good batsmen out.

Never seen him reverse it though.

 

[Prince EWS]

Kallis is hardly much an all-rounder these days TBF. He is batsman who bowls a bit now, the man hasn't even taken a 5 wicket haul in tests in 6 1/2 years. Bravo & Watson are on par with him as test bowlers.

Plus is pretty unfair to compare a fast-bowling allrounder to a spin bowling all-rounder.

Vettori clealry should be the best "all-rounder" in the world at the moment since he is the only one ATM combining quality test batting & bowling with equal success. All Big Dan needs soon is score a hundred & take 5 wicket wicket haul in the same test/series.

The fact that he hasn't been taking bags of five doesn't preclude him from being a bowler. The real irony is that you actually used this theory of yours to claim that Flintoff was a better allrounder than Kallis this decade, and Flintoff only took five three times in his whole career despite being a bowling allrounder.

Since the tour of England, Kallis's bowling has been awesome IMO. I'd pick him in South Africa's team right now even if he couldn't bat - he's been their second best quick in recent times.