*Official* England in South Africa

[GIMH]

On what basis are you saying that Davies is not international quality? Hell, he might fail, but he's done everything you could have asked of him so far. I know you don't rate our domestic scene (to quite a ludicrous extent) but how else are we meant to pick players? You are talking about a bowler who takes wickets for fun whenever he plays. He might turn out to not be international class but the way you state it as fact is simply ridiculous; he deserves this opportunity and I hope he rams your words down your throat if selected.

 

[Jarquis]

Haa. The two of you could try with yall lame sarcasm. Davies is poor selection, see reasons below:



I dont think so tbf. Panesar spent a winter in IND or SRI a couple years back & it didn't help him much when he eventually played test in those conditions.

Davies is not international quality & he isn't much different from John Lewis, Martin Bicknell, Martin Saggers, Allan Moss etc. Just a English seamer with no pace to trouble international batsmen on overseas pitches.

ENG where better going for Harmo regardless of his past woes. Since at least we know from what happened when AUS toured SA in march this year, pitches in Champions trophy & the just concluded ODI series. That Durban & Jo'burg FOR SURE, will have bounce & Harmo still remains the best man for those conditions.

How on Earth do you know that? Harmison has proven himself to be a level below useless half the time.
At least give Davies an opportunity to fail before condemning him. He's performed well for the Lions on various tours, performed well in the practice/warm up game the other day.
To liken him to Panesar is absurd. Panesar's average is > 150% of Davies's.
Consider how often players struggle to find form after having a lengthy injury, well Davies has been through that numerous times and still has 250 FC wickets @ 22. That's incredible.

There is absolutely nothing to gain from picking Harmison, I can't guarantee anything from Davies but he's infinitely more likely to succeed compared to Harmison who's a liability at times.

 

[aussie]

On what basis are you saying that Davies is not international quality?.

Based on the few times i've sen him bowl. Approximately 3 times in FC matches at OT. Last time sept 2007. Nothing close to international quality & i know you this.

Hell, he might fail, but he's done everything you could have asked of him so far. I know you don't rate our domestic scene (to quite a ludicrous extent) but how else are we meant to pick players?.

I dont rate Division 2 performaces & neither should you. I rate Division one performances where needed. Not all can be taken on face value.

Davies bowls in the most bowler friendly wicket in the country for heavens sake. In SA we are going to get approximately 2 roads IN (Centurion & Capetwon) & two perth like decks in Durban & Jo'burg. Davies will not not be effective on those wickets with his lack of pace.

You are talking about a bowler who takes wickets for fun whenever he plays. He might turn out to not be international class but the way you state it as fact is simply ridiculous; he deserves this opportunity and I hope he rams your words down your throat if selected.

Yes he has taken wickets for fun on a very bowler freindly CLS deck & againts a few poor county batsmen at times. But the fact that he has been picked clearly shows how poor the quality of pace bowlers in our domestic system are. His selection is nothing to cheer about, since he is nothing different from the amount successful country trundlers that have turned out to be useless in tests that played for ENG during the mid 80s & 90s.

How has Davies earned a place ahead of Bresnan even??

 

[aussie]

How on Earth do you know that? Harmison has proven himself to be a level below useless half the time.

At least give Davies an opportunity to fail before condemning him. He's performed well for the Lions on various tours, performed well in the practice/warm up game the other day.

We have seen this before though haven't we. Mahmood was sucessful in lions tours & we know his 411 ATM. But at least he had pace, i refuse to believe a bowler like Davies who can barely hit 80 mph is going to trouble the SA batsmen.

To liken him to Panesar is absurd. Panesar's average is > 150% of Davies's.

I'm not comparing them as bowler or average wise. I'm comparing the fact that just because he has experience playing in SA ATM doesn't mean it is a clear guide to how he will go in test if god forbid he is picked.

Its very similar to saying because Panesar had went to IND & SRI to play domestic cricket before he actually played a test in those countries & surprise surprise Monty still failed.

Consider how often players struggle to find form after having a lengthy injury, well Davies has been through that numerous times and still has 250 FC wickets @ 22. That's incredible.

Ha ye It is indeed incredible. But clearly it more an indictment on our domestic batsmen rather than how great Davies is, thats obvious.

There is absolutely nothing to gain from picking Harmison, I can't guarantee anything from Davies but he's infinitely more likely to succeed compared to Harmison who's a liability at times.

As i said i have the same reservations about picking Harmison again as anyone. But unfortunately without Flintoff now, we clearly need some pace.

As i keep saying but for reason people dont seem to get it. Harmsion WILL get pitches that suite his style of bowling in SA. That is quiet obvious if you have been watching cricket from SA this year.

 

[Furball]

The most successful bowlers in South Africa are those who get the ball to do something, either through the air or off the pitch.

Harmison doesn't give you either of those options.

 

[GIMH]

aussie, Anderson and Broad both bowled quicker than Harmison at The Oval

 

[Furball]

Since Harmison's return to the side, he's not been significantly quicker than any other England bowler on show, and has quite often been mid to low 80s.

For whatever reason, he is no longer capable of generating long spells bowled at extreme pace.

 

[TT Boy]

I'm tending to believe Davies is a first class "myth". Be interested to see how he gets on because whenever I've seen him albeit in limited overs cricket he was useless.

 

[zaremba]

A long overdue call-up for Mark Davies. Yes we all know that he plays on a bowler-friendly surface at Durham. Yes we all know that he's a medium-pacer. And yes none of us know for sure whether he will succeed in Tests. But for God's sake, he's outstanding in domestic cricket (and FTR, aussie, Durham play in Div 1 of the County Championship...) and a call-up is well merited.

Lack of pace can be an issue, particularly on a really flat deck, but there are plenty of instances of medium pacers who've succeeded at Test level.

I really hope he does well.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Durham's home ground isn't particularly bowler friendly. It offers enough for bowlers but not enough to stop good batsmen prospering too.

 

[zaremba]

Durham's home ground isn't particularly bowler friendly. It offers enough for bowlers but not enough to stop good batsmen prospering too.

Fair enough, and I've never watched cricket there. Is it true that there is permafrost a couple of inches below the surface?

 

[Prince EWS]

On what basis are you saying that Davies is not international quality? Hell, he might fail, but he's done everything you could have asked of him so far. I know you don't rate our domestic scene (to quite a ludicrous extent) but how else are we meant to pick players? You are talking about a bowler who takes wickets for fun whenever he plays. He might turn out to not be international class but the way you state it as fact is simply ridiculous; he deserves this opportunity and I hope he rams your words down your throat if selected.

England are supposed to pick their Test players based on the domestic one day games aussie watches on TV. Are you new?

 

[Prince EWS]

Based on the few times i've sen him bowl. Approximately 3 times in FC matches at OT. Last time sept 2007.

Oh, well that changes everything then. You saw Davies play three games more than two years ago. That means a lot more than an entire career of currently unrivalled success.

 

[aussie]

The most successful bowlers in South Africa are those who get the ball to do something, either through the air or off the pitch.

Harmison doesn't give you either of those options.

Indeed. But what is Harmo's strenght, when he gets pitch that has bounce. He becomes very intimidating. In SA this year although Johnson found swing from nowhere, he & Siddle are very similar to Harmo & they seriosuly troubled SA with bounce they got.

Ask Graeme Smith how is arm is feeling & Kallis how chin is feeling.

aussie, Anderson and Broad both bowled quicker than Harmison at The Oval.

So. Kemar Roach bowler faster than Johnson in current at times in the first two test so far. That doesn't mean he is quicker.

Anderson & Broad clearly aren't quicker than Harmo.

Since Harmison's return to the side, he's not been significantly quicker than any other England bowler on show, and has quite often been mid to low 80s.

For whatever reason, he is no longer capable of generating long spells bowled at extreme pace.

Not really. Vs SA last year in the Oval test & ODI series vs SA. Harmo was sharper than Flintoff on occassions. He was down on pace on the flat decks in IND & WI because he is traditioanlly a horrificly poor bowler on flat decks.

In the warm-up before the Ashes where Lee took 6 wickets. Harmo was the fastest on show & his pace was up in the Leeds test.

 

[aussie]

A long overdue call-up for Mark Davies. Yes we all know that he plays on a bowler-friendly surface at Durham. Yes we all know that he's a medium-pacer. And yes none of us know for sure whether he will succeed in Tests. But for God's sake, he's outstanding in domestic cricket (and FTR, aussie, Durham play in Div 1 of the County Championship...) and a call-up is well merited.

Lack of pace can be an issue, particularly on a really flat deck, but there are plenty of instances of medium pacers who've succeeded at Test level.

I really hope he does well.

Ha you make it sound as if lesser bowlers where being selected over Davies in recent times.

Yes i know Durham is DIV 1. But as TT_Boy so eruditely his FC record is "myth". All FC performances aren't a clear guide, if that was the case we probably should have picked Ramprakash in the Oval test. Based on what i have seen of him i refuse to believe he will trouble international batsmen.

If you guys want to take the compassionate approach as "hope he bowls well" if does have to play - fine. But i'll go on based on what i've seen of him & what history as told us about English medium pacers in test - and have no confidence. Plus how has he earnt a place over Bresnan in the test squad as well??

Oh, well that changes everything then. You saw Davies play three games more than two years ago. That means a lot more than an entire career of currently unrivalled success.

Well if it helps. I haven't/didn't seen Mahmood bowl live in over year before he got picked in ODI squad based on supposedly quality List A stats this season, & i could have told you that he hadn't improve regardless by just glacing at List A scorecards. You know his situation after the current ODI series...

 

[Furball]

Yes i know Durham is DIV 1. But as TT_Boy so eruditely his FC record is "myth". All FC performances aren't a clear guide, if that was the case we probably should have picked Ramprakash in the Oval test. Based on what i have seen of him i refuse to believe he will trouble international batsmen.

There's a slight difference between Ramprakash, who is a proven Test failure, and Davies, who has never been tested at the highest level.

 

[zaremba]

But i'll go on based on what i've seen of him & what history as told us about English medium pacers in test - and have no confidence. Plus how has he earnt a place over Bresnan in the test squad as well??

I'm not sure what you think history tells us about English medium pacers. Some of the best English bowlers in history have been medium pacers. Don't forget, we've managed to pick plenty of crap fast bowlers and plenty of crap spinners over the years.

How has he earned a place above Bresnan? Well if he is indeed above Bresnan in the pecking order, it may have to do with having a consistently outstanding record including the best FC career average in the country.

 

[zaremba]

Ha you make it sound as if lesser bowlers were being selected over Davies in recent times.

Well Saj Mahmood, Liam Plunkett, Steve Harmison all spring immediately to mind.

But the point is, we don't know how good Davies could be, and would have been, at Test level. All we have to go on is his record in domestic cricket. Which is better than those of Anderson, Flintoff, Harmison, Mahmood, Sidebottom, Onions, the lot.

 

[Goughy]

A long overdue call-up for Mark Davies. Yes we all know that he plays on a bowler-friendly surface at Durham. Yes we all know that he's a medium-pacer. And yes none of us know for sure whether he will succeed in Tests. But for God's sake, he's outstanding in domestic cricket (and FTR, aussie, Durham play in Div 1 of the County Championship...) and a call-up is well merited.

Lack of pace can be an issue, particularly on a really flat deck, but there are plenty of instances of medium pacers who've succeeded at Test level.

I really hope he does well.

Yeah, I agree. I dont know whether he will do well or not. One ortwo games will never be enough to draw any real conclusion.

All that I can say is that he has earned his opportunity and deserves a shot which is more than certain others have. My only question is why now? He has had a good record for a while now and we have been picking average quicks as short term fixes recently.

 

[NUFAN]

Based on the few times i've sen him bowl. Approximately 3 times in FC matches at OT. Last time sept 2007. Nothing close to international quality & i know you this.

Approximately 3 times hey?

What about this from the favourite players thread..

I hear that yo..

Haa. Thats criminal if thats true. Although i'll admit i haven't gone to a FC match, List A or domestic T20 for Lancashire since 2006. No exciting players on domestic circuit to see in this country..

So I know you've mentioned Lancs, but why did you mention only Lancs, if you saw Durham in 2007, or didn't you see them and only see 3 deliveries by Davies in news reports?