Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[tooextracool]

Yeah, but at least those bowlers did take wickets at home.

Seems to me that basically, according to your logic, any spin bowler who plays for the subcontinent is a better bowler than one who plays outside. Sorry but this is bogus, is it Vettori's fault that he was born in NZ?

As a spin bowler, you can only do the best you can do with the conditions offered to you. I have pointed out that Vettori has by and large at least as good if not better record outside of the subcontinent than many of the spin bowlers in the last 30 years who have been considered 'good'. I don' t think you have a convincing argument against that.

 

[social]

yuvraj is a batsman; not a bowler. if you want to prove vettori is a better bowler than him then you dont have to work too hard. while you are at it, you can also prove that vettori is a better batter than harbhajan. but if you think vettori would be more valuable to the indian team than a yuvraj or a harbhajan then you are wrong. one could win matches with the bat. the other could bowl the opposition out. vettori can do neither. of course, he can serve drinks if he wants.

Look at their records,

Vettori has had faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more success than Yuvi AS A BATSMAN at test level over the last 5 years

Yuvi might look better but he doesnt deliver and, at this stage, is an incredibly ordinary test player

Also, you'd pick Vettori as a bowler alone in front of Harby in Oz every day of the week

 

[aussie]

Yeah but Murali is arguably the greatest of all time, he wasn't just good he was the ****ing best there was.

Exactly. Uppercut dawg, i think you are unfairly judging Vettori's success in the sub-continent vs great spinners.

Vettori is very good againts batsmen who want to attacking him see his record vs AUS. Plus if the pitch has any turn he can be as dangerous as anybody.

His struggles in tests come when bowling to batsmen who are defensive or on flat decks. He lacks Warne/Murali guile to take wickets in those circumstances.

 

[Prince EWS]

Vettori would add infinitely more to India's team at the moment than Yuvraj.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Exactly. Uppercut dawg, i think you are unfairly judging Vettori's success in the sub-continent vs great spinners.

Vettori is very good againts batsmen who want to attacking him see his record vs AUS. Plus if the pitch has any turn he can be as dangerous as anybody.

His struggles in tests come when bowling to batsmen who are defensive or on flat decks. He lacks Warne/Murali guile to take wickets in those circumstances.

He doesn't lack the guile, he lacks the pure weapons.

 

[aussie]

He doesn't lack the guile, he lacks the pure weapons.

Yes weapons would be a better word.

 

[Zinzan]

He doesn't lack the guile, he lacks the pure weapons.

Correct

 

[aussie]

Vettori would add infinitely more to India's team at the moment than Yuvraj.

He probably would. But i'm not sure if he is good enough to consistently bat @ 6/7 in test consistently tbh regardless of his batting in the last few years.

Like Pollock, i think # 8 is just about high as i would bat him.

 

[bagapath]

Look at their records,

Vettori has had faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more success than Yuvi AS A BATSMAN at test level over the last 5 years

Yuvi might look better but he doesnt deliver and, at this stage, is an incredibly ordinary test player

Also, you'd pick Vettori as a bowler alone in front of Harby in Oz every day of the week

minus minnows...

DL Vettori (NZ) 2005-2009 29 49 8 1655 140 40.36 2636 62.78 2 10 2 212 6

Yuvraj Singh (India) 2005-2009 22 35 4 1183 169 38.16 1933 61.20 2 7 6 167 12

Scoring 3 fifties in 14 more innings is no big deal. calling him "faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more" successful is going too faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Would be more than happy with him at 7 and Dhoni at 6.

 

[Uppercut]

Seems to me that basically, according to your logic, any spin bowler who plays for the subcontinent is a better bowler than one who plays outside. Sorry but this is bogus, is it Vettori's fault that he was born in NZ?

As a spin bowler, you can only do the best you can do with the conditions offered to you. I have pointed out that Vettori has by and large at least as good if not better record outside of the subcontinent than many of the spin bowlers in the last 30 years who have been considered 'good'. I don' t think you have a convincing argument against that.

Spin bowling stocks are generally much better in the subcontinent. Being from New Zealand is a disadvantage, but it doesn't mean you can get someone out once every 14 overs and still be considered a quality bowler. Not to the extent Vettori is, anyway.

If you're excluding the all-time greats, I'll point to Stuart MacGill as non-subcontinental bowlers go. He played whatever he was dealt and came out with a wicket every 9 overs. It's difficult to do well as a spinner outside the sub-continent, but it's not impossible.

Yuvi might look better but he doesnt deliver

As someone who largely agrees with you regarding Vettori's batting, I have to say I found this a little ironic.

 

[Prince EWS]

Would be more than happy with him at 7 and Dhoni at 6.

Yeah, AWTA. Even if you're of the opinion that he isn't really good enough to be a genuine Test seven (which I'm certainly not, anyway), the strength of India's top order compared to its bowling lineup and the pitches they tend to encounter would mean a fifth bowler would be of a lot more use than a below-average batsman anyway, as long as his batting was at least of "good #8" standard which Vettori's undoubtedly is.

 

[Uppercut]

Vettori would add infinitely more to India's team at the moment than Yuvraj.

He would, yeah. When I wondered if he'd make it into the Indian side I naturally thought it would be as a spinner. Second thoughts, he'd take the number 6 spot easily.

 

[tooextracool]

Spin bowling stocks are generally much better in the subcontinent. Being from New Zealand is a disadvantage, but it doesn't mean you can get someone out once every 14 overs and still be considered a quality bowler. Not to the extent Vettori is, anyway.

If you're excluding the all-time greats, I'll point to Stuart MacGill as non-subcontinental bowlers go. He played whatever he was dealt and came out with a wicket every 9 overs. It's difficult to do well as a spinner outside the sub-continent, but it's not impossible.

For the record, Macgill's record outside of the subcontinent and excluding minnows is 144 wickets at 33 a piece. Yes it is better than Vettori's but again is it anything remarkable? No not really. To use an argument that you made earlier, even if Macgill was to take 10 wickets in an inning, he would still have conceded 330 runs on average. FTR I do rate Macgill as being a very good bowler who was unfortunate to have played in the time in which he played.

Honestly, there is no evidence of a subcontinental bowler being significantly more effective than Vettori outside of the subcontinent either.

 

[bagapath]

For the record, Macgill's record outside of the subcontinent and excluding minnows is 144 wickets at 33 a piece.

I dont know what numbers you are talking about. Here are the top 5 spinners in the last 20 years in test matches played in Aus, NZ, WI, SA and Eng. No prizes for guessing who comes in last.

SK Warne (Aus) 119 225 5616.3 1497 14452 575 8/71 12/128 25.13 2.57 58.6 26 7
M Muralitharan 29 47 1576.1 354 4188 162 9/65 16/220 25.85 2.65 58.3 14 5
SCG MacGill 37 72 1599.0 321 5093 172 7/50 12/107 29.61 3.18 55.7 10 2
A Kumble 46 84 2369.1 500 6632 186 8/141 12/279 35.65 2.79 76.4 8 1
DL Vettori 73 117 2772.1 640 7434 205 7/87 12/149 36.26 2.68 81.1 11 2

Like I said before, the only way vettori's numbers could look impressive is when he is compared with all the other daniel vettoris of this world. once you bring in world class spinners to the equation his FC quality (not Test quality) talent pales in comparison in the international arena.

EDIT: Removed minnows from the opposition

SK Warne 119 225 5616.3 1497 14452 575 8/71 12/128 25.13 2.57 58.6 26 7
M Muralitharan 29 47 1576.1 354 4188 162 9/65 16/220 25.85 2.65 58.3 14 5
SCG MacGill 34 66 1504.1 299 4810 153 7/50 12/107 31.43 3.19 58.9 7 1
A Kumble 46 84 2369.1 500 6632 186 8/141 12/279 35.65 2.79 76.4 8 1
DL Vettori 67 105 2589.4 577 7019 188 7/87 12/149 37.33 2.71 82.6 11 2

he still makes up the rear....

 

[bagapath]

At the moment, the guy is New Zealand's best batsman, bowler, coach and captain. I would like to see how many players can do that.

I feel very sad for New Zealand cricket.

 

[tooextracool]

I dont know what numbers you are talking about. Here are the top 5 spinners in the last 20 years in test matches played in Aus, NZ, WI, SA and Eng. No prizes for guessing who comes in last.

SK Warne (Aus) 119 225 5616.3 1497 14452 575 8/71 12/128 25.13 2.57 58.6 26 7
M Muralitharan 29 47 1576.1 354 4188 162 9/65 16/220 25.85 2.65 58.3 14 5
SCG MacGill 37 72 1599.0 321 5093 172 7/50 12/107 29.61 3.18 55.7 10 2
A Kumble 46 84 2369.1 500 6632 186 8/141 12/279 35.65 2.79 76.4 8 1
DL Vettori 73 117 2772.1 640 7434 205 7/87 12/149 36.26 2.68 81.1 11 2

Like I said before, the only way vettori's numbers could look impressive is when he is compared with all the other daniel vettoris of this world. once you bring in world class spinners to the equation his FC quality (not Test quality) talent pales in comparison in the international arena.

EDIT: Removed minnows from the opposition

SK Warne 119 225 5616.3 1497 14452 575 8/71 12/128 25.13 2.57 58.6 26 7
M Muralitharan 29 47 1576.1 354 4188 162 9/65 16/220 25.85 2.65 58.3 14 5
SCG MacGill 34 66 1504.1 299 4810 153 7/50 12/107 31.43 3.19 58.9 7 1
A Kumble 46 84 2369.1 500 6632 186 8/141 12/279 35.65 2.79 76.4 8 1
DL Vettori 67 105 2589.4 577 7019 188 7/87 12/149 37.33 2.71 82.6 11 2

he still makes up the rear....

Since the era of covered pitches, there have been what 2 spin bowlers who are convincingly better than Vettori? And these 2 spin bowlers happen to be 2 of the greatest spin bowlers in 120 odd years of history of cricket, and one has a disjointed elbow. Should we assume that there have only been 2 good spinners in the last 30 years in Warne and Murali?

Regarding Kumble, his average is a whole 1.6 better than Vettori, if thats the difference between a 'good' spin bowler and an ordinary one the margin is very small.

And on MacGill, as I calculated his record is 144 wickets at slightly less than 33 a piece (when you exclude Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and ICC world XIs along with performances in Pakistan and SL). However, one needs to remember to take his record with a grain of salt, given that the majority of times that he played he was picked to partner Warne on pitches expected to take turn. Such as him playing almost 1/5th of his tests at Sydney.

 

[bagapath]

Regarding Kumble, his average is a whole 1.6 better than Vettori, if thats the difference between a 'good' spin bowler and an ordinary one the margin is very small.

not just that. he also took 2 wickets more than kumble in 21 extra tests. that is pathetic. his fans talk about vettori being the atlas of NZ cricket. and he struggles to take 3 wickets per test! sad sad state of affairs here.

However, one needs to remember to take his record with a grain of salt, given that the majority of times that he played he was picked to partner Warne on pitches expected to take turn. Such as him playing almost 1/5th of his tests at Sydney.

I always take it as a sign of surrender when the list of excuses keeps growing longer with each argument. So, isnt vettori supposed to take more wickets per test because there is no one to share the opponents with him or is he supposed to feel bad he is not australian that he doesnt get to play often in sydney?

Vettori is a mediocre cricketer who gets to play a lot of games these days because NZ cannot find XI cricketers to play for the country. Lets not get carried away and compare him with botham and kapil or call him the greatest spin bowling all-rounder in history. poor guy might kill himself in embarassment.

 

[NUFAN]

I get the feeling that you've taken out MacGill's record against the World XI only because he's done well.

 

[vic_orthdox]

God, this thread could only get worse if thierry henry got involved.