Where does Vettori rank all-time as an all-rounder?

[Athlai]

That's all good & well, but would the Bangladeshi's side against NZ in 08, still be considered minnows?

Away I'd say yes. At home? No.

 

[tooextracool]

My thoughts on Vettori are that it is unfair to compare him to a pace bowling all rounder, in much the same way that it is unfair to compare Shane Warne to Glenn McGrath. Whilst it is true that a good pace bowler can prosper in almost any conditions, spin bowlers bring something else to the table that cannot be measured against.

Most people know how highly I value Vettori's bowling. For me, he is undoubtedly the best left arm spin bowler I have seen in 17 odd years of watching cricket, and I would be hard pressed to name him as the best finger spin bowler I have seen as well. I certainly think the analogies with Giles is a bit ludicrous, I rate Giles, but anyone who seriously thinks that the 2 of them are on the same level needs to actually watch the 2 bowl instead of simply making random comments based on their records. With the exception of Warne, I have yet to see a spin bowler with the same command of flight, drift and guile as Vettori during my years of watching and I am not likely to change my opinion on that because of the fact that Murali or Kumble took more wickets at a better rate.

As far as his all round skills are concerned, yes he is a very good all rounder, but as I said earlier, his record and performance needs to be put into context with the spin bowling all rounders rather than the pace bowling all rounders that will go down in time.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I agree for the most part. I think he's under-rated a bit as a bowler, I know my old coach used to rate him very highly. Also very handy with the bat. Came into cricket at a young age and has improved markedly in the last few years.

 

[tooextracool]

Vettori > Cairns (with bat)

Not sure I would agree with that. Cairns has a decent record with the bat, most teams feared him far more than teams fear Vettori because it only took 2-3 hours of Cairns at the crease for a game to turn completely on its head.

 

[tooextracool]

...... it's easy to forget that he takes about as many wickets as the much-maligned Ashley Giles.

Irrelevant. Giles bowled in England, which by the way happens to be one of the most spin friendly nations in the world outside of the subcontinent. Vettori's record in England makes Giles look like a no hoper, and thats even excluding the fact that Vettori played an entire series being completely incompetent as a result of injury.

 

[Uppercut]

So you're speculating that Vettori might have taken more wickets had he been English?

FWIW, I don't think Giles and Vettori are equals as bowlers, and I never said that, but the fact that their records are comparable shouldn't be ignored. Giles was always much more effective than Vettori on the subcontinent, for instance, where they both played on similar pitches against similar batting lineups. That one is widely considered to be some kind of bad joke and the other a minor spin bowling genius isn't entirely unjust, but aesthetics have an awful lot to do with it.

 

[tooextracool]

So you're speculating that Vettori might have taken more wickets had he been English?

Im not specualting anything, Giles spent the majority of his career bowling on English pitches, Vettori came in as a visitor and has spun circles around the England team umpteen times and has a much better record in England than Giles. In 99, the majority of English players were clueless against him. People routinely forget how spin friendly English pitches are. Heck, in the games that he did play, Hauritz was the most effective Australian bowler on tour in the Ashes this past summer.

FWIW, I don't think Giles and Vettori are equals as bowlers, and I never said that, but the fact that their records are comparable shouldn't be ignored. Giles was always much more effective than Vettori on the subcontinent, for instance, where they both played on similar pitches against similar batting lineups. That one is widely considered to be some kind of bad joke and the other a minor spin bowling genius isn't entirely unjust, but aesthetics have an awful lot to do with it.

How exactly is it comparable though? Their overall record is comparable, but that means as much to me as Thilan Samaraweera having a 'comparable' record to Sir Viv Richards.

Giles being more effective in the subcontinent is news to me. Vettori has a superior record to Giles in SL, and whilst Giles has a better record in India (averaging an unremarkable 34 I might add), it is a result of 1 inning(where he took 5/67) and was a direct result of the kind of tactics employed by the England team. So I'm not sure about the logic behind Vettori being less effective than Giles. I don't disagree that Giles was more effective than most spinners in the subcontinent but your logic that he was more effective than Vettori is flawed.

I have excluded Pakistan because Vettori has bowled there in 1 inning on a featherbed.

Getting back to their overall record, Vettori has 18 5fers and 3 10fers, including 6 5fers and 1 10fer against the best team in the world in Australia, whilst bowling on Australian and NZ pitches I might add. The comparison with Giles in this statistic is pointless. Their record is comparable on face value, thats just about it, if you dig a little deeper, you will find exactly why most admirers of spin are huge fans of Vettori.

 

[social]

As an example of how ridiculously underrated Vettori is by some, it has been claimed in this thread that Vettori wouldnt make the present Indian team

Fortunately, you dont even have to bother with comparisons to Harby etc to disprove this nonsense

All you need to do is compare his record over the past 5 years with a left handed batsman/spinner

Yuvraj Singh | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

 

[tooextracool]

Im not really sure how Vettori would not make the Indian team tbh. The Indian selectors would have to be a bunch of fools if they didn't select Vettori as one of their spinners considering that hes been averaging over 40 with the bat over the last few years. Lets just remind ourselves that Praghyan Ojha just got picked in the Indian side and he can barely even tell the right side of the bat to hold up.

 

[Uppercut]

How exactly is it comparable though? Their overall record is comparable, but that means as much to me as Thilan Samaraweera having a 'comparable' record to Sir Viv Richards.

Giles being more effective in the subcontinent is news to me. Vettori has a superior record to Giles in SL, and whilst Giles has a better record in India (averaging an unremarkable 34 I might add), it is a result of 1 inning(where he took 5/67) and was a direct result of the kind of tactics employed by the England team. So I'm not sure about the logic behind Vettori being less effective than Giles. I don't disagree that Giles was more effective than most spinners in the subcontinent but your logic that he was more effective than Vettori is flawed.

I have excluded Pakistan because Vettori has bowled there in 1 inning on a featherbed.

Getting back to their overall record, Vettori has 18 5fers and 3 10fers, including 6 5fers and 1 10fer against the best team in the world in Australia, whilst bowling on Australian and NZ pitches I might add. The comparison with Giles in this statistic is pointless. Their record is comparable on face value, thats just about it, if you dig a little deeper, you will find exactly why most admirers of spin are huge fans of Vettori.

Except it was only a featherbed when he was bowling, when Danesh Kaneria and Saqlain Mushtaq came on it suddenly and mysteriously became a minefield.

It's just typical of the excuses people come up with for Vettori not taking many wickets. The pitch was flat, the batsmen were good, his team-mates were rubbish... the bottom line isn't there, I'm afraid. I want wickets from my bowlers, all of the flight, guile and pace variation is just a means to an end. Wickets is what it's all about, and Vettori doesn't deliver often enough.

 

[aussie]

Except it was only a featherbed when he was bowling, when Danesh Kaneria and Saqlain Mushtaq came on it suddenly and mysteriously became a minefield.

It's just typical of the excuses people come up with for Vettori not taking many wickets. The pitch was flat, the batsmen were good, his team-mates were rubbish... the bottom line isn't there, I'm afraid. I want wickets from my bowlers, all of the flight, guile and pace variation is just a means to an end. Wickets is what it's all about, and Vettori doesn't deliver often enough.

Because NZ where poor players of spin. While in first innings they where blown away by Akhtar sheer pace on flat deck.

 

[tooextracool]

Except it was only a featherbed when he was bowling, when Danesh Kaneria and Saqlain Mushtaq came on it suddenly and mysteriously became a minefield.

Err, pitches 101, they deteriorate over time. Vettori got first use of the pitch whilst Kaneria and Saqlain got final use. It is quite conceivable that the pitch may have changed over time is it not?

It's just typical of the excuses people come up with for Vettori not taking many wickets. The pitch was flat, the batsmen were good, his team-mates were rubbish... the bottom line isn't there, I'm afraid. I want wickets from my bowlers, all of the flight, guile and pace variation is just a means to an end. Wickets is what it's all about, and Vettori doesn't deliver often enough.

and how many spin bowlers do? With the exception of the 2 freaks in Warne, Murali and if you want to be generous Kumble, there is no other spinner who has been able to take wickets consistently outside of the subcontinent in the last 30 years.

You can duck and weave your way, but those are basic facts. Harbhajan averages 37 away from home, comparable with Vettori's record (and it gets worse when you exclude Zimbabwe), Kaneria averages 37 away from home (exclude Bangladesh and Sri Lanka and that would be in the high 40s), Saqlain was good except that once people worked out his doosra he couldn't take a wicket to save his life, Mendis is starting to find out the hard way that variations work only when they are new. Heck even the well respected Abdul Qadir was averaging 48 away from home. Did I leave anyone out?

You have reached the very crux of the issue, in that spin bowlers are doomed to have a career consisting of unflattering statistics and forced to face criticism when compared to their pace bowling counterparts. Vettori's record needs to put in context with the spin bowling all rounders of yesteryear, not with those that could hurl the ball at speeds over 80mph.

Edit: Scratch that, even Kumble averages 36 away from home, which is also boosted by cheap wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. So its really only Warne and flexy elbow Murali.

 

[Uppercut]

Because NZ where poor players of spin. While in first innings they where blown away by Akhtar sheer pace on flat deck.

Right. The batsmen were too good at playing spin, the pitch was too flat, Neptune wasn't aligned with Jupiter. I've heard them all before.

Murali often played on flat pitches, against good players of spin, in weak sides, when not at his best, while carrying an injury, when he bowled well but had no luck, when there wasn't much support from the other end, when his team were up against it, when he had to adjust to foreign conditions, when he was having struggles in his private life, when he had to use a different type of ball and when he had not had *** in a long time. He came out on the other side with bucketloads and bucketloads of wickets for very few runs. And do you know why? Because that's what good bowlers do.

 

[Athlai]

Yeah but Murali is arguably the greatest of all time, he wasn't just good he was the ****ing best there was.

 

[Uppercut]

and how many spin bowlers do? With the exception of the 2 freaks in Warne, Murali and if you want to be generous Kumble, there is no other spinner who has been able to take wickets consistently outside of the subcontinent in the last 30 years.

You can duck and weave your way, but those are basic facts. Harbhajan averages 37 away from home, comparable with Vettori's record (and it gets worse when you exclude Zimbabwe), Kaneria averages 37 away from home (exclude Bangladesh and Sri Lanka and that would be in the high 40s), Saqlain was good except that once people worked out his doosra he couldn't take a wicket to save his life, Mendis is starting to find out the hard way that variations work only when they are new. Heck even the well respected Abdul Qadir was averaging 48 away from home. Did I leave anyone out?

You have reached the very crux of the issue, in that spin bowlers are doomed to have a career consisting of unflattering statistics and forced to face criticism when compared to their pace bowling counterparts. Vettori's record needs to put in context with the spin bowling all rounders of yesteryear, not with those that could hurl the ball at speeds over 80mph.

Edit: Scratch that, even Kumble averages 36 away from home, which is also boosted by cheap wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. So its really only Warne and flexy elbow Murali.

Yeah, but at least those bowlers did take wickets at home. Vettori just has theoretical wickets that people think he might have taken had he been a completely different person with a different nationality. Whether it's reasonable to assume he would have taken them or not, they're not real wickets. At one wicket every 14 overs, the output simply isn't there.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah but Murali is arguably the greatest of all time, he wasn't just good he was the ****ing best there was.

Haha, it's true, but the point is that everyone has to deal with this stuff. Take Harbhajan Singh instead then, averaging a respectable 31. Did he never have dead pitches, good batsmen to bowl to, a weak attack... and so on? Of course he did. He's had all kinds of problems, everyone does, because life isn't easy.

When you take wickets, no one talks about them. There's no need to. Everyone goes through it, but only the bowlers who don't take wickets get credit for it.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah, you might as well blame Vettori for not having a double jointed wrist. When will people learn that you can't really compare any spin bowler with Murali given that there is no spin bowler in the history of the game that is remotely similar to Murali.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Look, I'd probably drop him in International Cricket Captain too, tbf.

 

[bagapath]

As an example of how ridiculously underrated Vettori is by some, it has been claimed in this thread that Vettori wouldnt make the present Indian team

Fortunately, you dont even have to bother with comparisons to Harby etc to disprove this nonsense

All you need to do is compare his record over the past 5 years with a left handed batsman/spinner

Yuvraj Singh | India Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | Cricinfo.com

yuvraj is a batsman; not a bowler. if you want to prove vettori is a better bowler than him then you dont have to work too hard. while you are at it, you can also prove that vettori is a better batter than harbhajan. but if you think vettori would be more valuable to the indian team than a yuvraj or a harbhajan then you are wrong. one could win matches with the bat. the other could bowl the opposition out. vettori can do neither. of course, he can serve drinks if he wants.

 

[Uppercut]

Look, I'd probably drop him in International Cricket Captain too, tbf.

I would if there were anyone better! His figures don't do him justice, if not to the extent some people think, but do you really expect that to change? Truth be told, he'll probably carry on not taking many wickets for the rest of his career.