Ireland For Test Status?

[Furball]

I thought Northern Irish people had a right to either (or indeed both) citizenships tho? If an Ulsterman exercised his right he'd presumably have a choice?

It would depend on what the rules are regarding citizenship and eligibility.

Certainly in football, a Belfast-born player who holds an Eire passport would be ineligible for team GB under FIFA's rules.

 

[BoyBrumby]

It would depend on what the rules are regarding citizenship and eligibility.

Certainly in football, a Belfast-born player who holds an Eire passport would be ineligible for team GB under FIFA's rules.

Only if he wasn't a dual Irish/British citizen tho, presumably.

 

[Goughy]

On this related topic, I could be wrong, Im under the impression that my kids could play football for any one of 7 nations. Please let me know if this is incorrect

As a child born overseas to a British born male on temporary assignment abroad they are eligible for all home counties as they are British but not born in a specific country. So England, Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland.

Mother was born in America. So USA

Kids born in SA. So South Africa

And a grandparent born in Philippnes. So Philippines

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, sounds right

 

[Uppercut]

You don't disagree with me - you disagree with internationally recognised geographical realities.

Republic Of Ireland is a country. Northern Ireland is part of another country, the UK. Ireland therefore is not one entity.

That's about as disputable as the fact that the English term for the colour of the sky is "blue".

I feel like I should probably deconstruct the ignorance of this rather than just pointing it out all the time.

Look at it this way. Just say, someone from Sweden sailed over to the North of England, planted down a flag and declared that six counties up there were now a country of their own, "Northern England", and were subsidiary to Sweden. Would England cease to be a country?

What if they came with enough military firepower to enforce this point of view on the whole of the British Isles. Would it then become a country? What if it waited fifty years? Would it at some stage suddenly transform into a country of its own?

Just say a very marginal majority in Northern England wanted to be part of Sweden. Would England, as an entity, then immediately cease to exist?

At what point would a country become no longer a country? These are questions everyone in Ireland had to ask themselves in 1921. The concept of cutting a country in two was (extremely) repulsive both to Unionists and Republicans, but was reluctantly accepted as the only realistic compromise.

What would be done with the England sporting teams? Would they be forced to divide themselves between those in the North and those in the South? Or would they continue on as though nothing has happened? If you were asked, at that point, whether you considered yourself Northern English or Southern English, what would your response be? If you said you just considered yourself English, how would you react to being told that such a country, and hence such a nationality, does not exist?

Just say there were 75 years of war over the issue, with the English sporting sides opting to remain intact. How ignorant would someone suggesting that they should all play together under the single banner of "Sweden and England" sound?

 

[Goughy]

I feel like I should probably deconstruct the ignorance of this rather than just pointing it out all the time.

Look at it this way. Just say, someone from Sweden sailed over to the North of England, planted down a flag and declared that six counties up there were now a country of their own, "Northern England", and were subsidiary to Sweden. Would England cease to be a country?

What if they came with enough military firepower to enforce this point of view on the whole of the British Isles. Would it then become a country? What if it waited fifty years? Would it at some stage suddenly transform into a country of its own?

Just say a very marginal majority in Northern England wanted to be part of Sweden. Would England, as an entity, then immediately cease to exist?

At what point would a country become no longer a country? These are questions everyone in Ireland had to ask themselves in 1921. The concept of cutting a country in two was (extremely) repulsive both to Unionists and Republicans, but was reluctantly accepted as the only realistic compromise.

What would be done with the England sporting teams? Would they be forced to divide themselves between those in the North and those in the South? Or would they continue on as though nothing has happened? If you were asked, at that point, whether you considered yourself Northern English or Southern English, what would your response be? If you said you just considered yourself English, how would you react to being told that such a country, and hence such a nationality, does not exist?

Just say there were 75 years of war over the issue, with the English sporting sides opting to remain intact. How ignorant would someone suggesting that they should all play together under the single banner of "Sweden and England" sound?

Whilst I get your point, its a pretty poor analogy for two reasons. A) it doesnt relate to what happened in context or history and is not remotely comparable

and even if it was

B) The type of situation described is relatively common across the world. Popualtions are moving towards self determination and self governance along religious and ethic grounds rather than those defined by geographical boundaries.

 

[Uppercut]

Whilst I get your point, its a pretty poor analogy for two reasons. A) it doesnt relate to what happened in context or history and is not remotely comparable

Personally I have no political alignment on the issue. But the feeling amongst a lot of Republics is that this is almost exactly what happened. The differences (300 previous years of oppression) don't exactly make the situation any better.

Richard now feels he can sit in a foreign land dictating what does or doesn't define their country, to which he has never been. Even as a political neutral, it grates.

B) The type of situation described is relatively common across the world. Popualtions are moving towards self determination and self governance along religious and ethic grounds rather than those defined by geographical boundaries.

Indeed.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, would agree with the indeed. Ireland isn't defined by political boundaries but by what it is.

 

[Richard]

If you were asked, at that point, whether you considered yourself Northern English or Southern English, what would your response be? If you said you just considered yourself English, how would you react to being told that such a country, and hence such a nationality, does not exist?

Being Welsh rather than English I'm probably not absolutely the best person to ask, but I'll say this, as I say the same to everyone who insists I'm actually English rather than Welsh - I can consider myself whatever I wish to consider myself; others can consider me whatever they wish. The same is true of those from Ireland. The political and geographical recognition is that Ireland is NI and ROI. Some people - legitimately enough - refuse to recognise this and consider themselves merely "Irish". That's their choice; people have the choice of accepting or refusing to accept the political and geographically recognised boundaries. There is no absolute right or wrong, IMO.

 

[Uppercut]

Being Welsh rather than English I'm probably not absolutely the best person to ask, but I'll say this, as I say the same to everyone who insists I'm actually English rather than Welsh - I can consider myself whatever I wish to consider myself; others can consider me whatever they wish. The same is true of those from Ireland. The political and geographical recognition is that Ireland is NI and ROI. Some people - legitimately enough - refuse to recognise this and consider themselves merely "Irish". That's their choice; people have the choice of accepting or refusing to accept the political and geographically recognised boundaries. There is no absolute right or wrong, IMO.

Absolutely right.

So why does all this go out the window when it comes to sport?

 

[Richard]

Because in sport there has to be some sort of unequivocal definition - the whole point of Test cricket (or international rugby union, or whatever) is that you cannot just rock up and represent whichever team you fancy or whoever will have you - you have to qualify. Thus there has to be some sort of arbitrary definition. I have my ideal; ICC have theirs; you can have yours. ICC's is the one that applies to cricket as things stand currently. But it doesn't mean I don't have the right to consider mine the "right" one (if I didn't, clearly, I wouldn't have it).

 

[GIMH]

Being Welsh rather than English I'm probably not absolutely the best person to ask, but I'll say this, as I say the same to everyone who insists I'm actually English rather than Welsh - I can consider myself whatever I wish to consider myself; others can consider me whatever they wish. The same is true of those from Ireland. The political and geographical recognition is that Ireland is NI and ROI. Some people - legitimately enough - refuse to recognise this and consider themselves merely "Irish". That's their choice; people have the choice of accepting or refusing to accept the political and geographically recognised boundaries. There is no absolute right or wrong, IMO.

Why do you consider yourself Welsh, I thought you defined nationality on where someone had lived the most?

Not a problem what you consider yourself btw, just seems to contradict your ideas on nationality

 

[Richard]

I don't for one second consider Welsh my nationality. My nationality is British - and I've lived in Britain all my life (only been anywhere else for only about a couple of weeks' worth of my 24 years and 2 months TBH). Being Welsh rather than English is to do with which region of Britain (or more accurately the UK) I'm from.

I've never seen England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as any more separate than Yorkshire and Lancashire, or Essex and Sussex. Perhaps that's part of the reason why I hate the idea of separatism of Ireland as much as I do. I've never regarded someone from Ireland as anything different to someone from Wales, England or anywhere else. Though yes, ROI is a different country.

I like the UK\ROI-all-one-happy-family sort of thing. Same way I'd ideally like as much of Europe as possible to be one-happy-family.

 

[four_or_six]

Home rule for Yorkshire, imo.

 

[GIMH]

I'm English not British

 

[Richard]

Frankly, that's a silly thing to say, and it irks me when people do (there's even a facebook group proclaiming it FFS).

You can be British without being English but by definition if you're English (or Welsh, or Scottish) you're British. There's no escaping it. It might not be of any great consequence to you, but you're still British.

 

[Top_Cat]

World citizen, tbh.

 

[GIMH]

Frankly, that's a silly thing to say, and it irks me when people do (there's even a facebook group proclaiming it FFS).

You can be British without being English but by definition if you're English (or Welsh, or Scottish) you're British. There's no escaping it. It might not be of any great consequence to you, but you're still British.

I am whatever I want to be, I don't consider myself British I consider myself English. My passport says British but frankly if you think the ICC's definition of Irish is something you can disagree with then why on earth can't I disagree with what my own nationality is defined as???

 

[Richard]

English just isn't a nationality, AFAIC. Obviously, some people define their own nationalities (there are some who consider themselves Yorkshire-ian as their nationality, however silly those outside the county may consider this).

British is the nationality of all those who are connected to England, Wales and Scotland. I feel that to deny one's Britishness is to basically renounce something which no-one has any legit reason to renounce. I don't see why anyone would want to be English (or Welsh) and not British. Makes no sense to me.

 

[Top_Cat]

Yeah but isn't that the point? It's not about what you think on this one.