Wrist spin - Is it the hardest skill in cricket?

[Son Of Coco]

Better Googly too, although Warne barely used his in all fairness.

What made Warne the better bowler was his control; with MacGill the batsmen knew they'd get a four ball eventually.

Warne's flipper was awesome too. Until he had finger problems. Had some decent variations once he lost the flipper though.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Mishra and Kaneria have much higher arms at the point of release than Warne and MacGill. Makes it harder, generally, to get the huge spin of the latter pair.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Of course it's the hardest skill in cricket - that's why my leggies are so goddamn brilliant.

Well, not really, otherwise I'd be playing test cricket. It does take ages to get right - perseverance galore, hours upon hours of bowling at the nets and even then, you can get back into it after a couple of months off over the winter and you feel like you're starting all over again. I've never been a huge turner of the ball, but relied more on variation with flight and speed. Ended up with a googly, a wrong'un, a toppie and the very early makings of a flipper - and there's nothing more satisfying than setting a batsman up and taking a wicket with a variation.

The other (major) problem in NZ is that captains don't have a clue how to set fields or adopt tactics for spinners, let along leggies. They're too scared to concede a few runs for the sake of wickets or a young player's development.

Googly and a wrong'un? Always thought they were the same thing?

Or do you have two different wrong'uns? Think Qadir had about 4 variations.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Biggest gripe that I have is that guys who spin the ball are discouraged for the sake of accuracy too often. Its a lot easier to teach accuracy than how to rip the ball past the bat. Setting the right fields can give the protection required, plus still attack.

 

[Furball]

Still, you would've thought there would've been at least one decent Chinaman in 140 years of test cricket. I personally find it incredible that no full time chinaman has ever taken 200 wickets at an average below 30.

How many leggies have done that?

Australia have had 4 - Grimmett, Benaud, Warne and Macgill.
India have had Kumble (I'm ignorant of whether the great Indian spinners of Bedi's era were offies or leggies)
Abdul Qadir and Kaneira have both taken over 200 wickets, but I'm fairly sure both have an average over 30.
As far as I'm aware no other Test nation has had a leggie that has come anywhere near 200 Test wickets.

 

[Furball]

Still, you would've thought there would've been at least one decent Chinaman in 140 years of test cricket. I personally find it incredible that no full time chinaman has ever taken 200 wickets at an average below 30.

A quick search on Statsguru reveals that only 14 spinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets.

Of those 14, only 10 of them have managed to do it with an average of under 30 (Harbhajan, Qadir, Vettori and Kaneria all have 30+ averages.)

3 of the 10 spinners who have taken 200+ Test wickets at a sub-30 average are offies (Gibbs, Bedi and Saqlain).

Only 7 wristspinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets at a sub 30 average.

Muttiah Muralitharan (783 @ 22.21)
Shane Warne (708 @ 25.41)
Anil Kumble (619 @ 29.65)
Ritchie Benaud (248 @ 27.03)
Chandrasekhar (242 @ 29.74)
Clarrie Gimmett (216 @ 24.21)
Stuart MacGill (208 @ 29.02)

 

[Smudge]

Googly and a wrong'un? Always thought they were the same thing?

Or do you have two different wrong'uns? Think Qadir had about 4 variations.

I've always been of the opinion/assumption that the wrong'un had a lower shoulder position (ie. more round-arm) while with the googly, the bowling arm grazed the ear, so generally there was more bounce and less spin. At least that's my variation!

 

[zaremba]

A quick search on Statsguru reveals that only 14 spinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets.

Of those 14, only 10 of them have managed to do it with an average of under 30 (Harbhajan, Qadir, Vettori and Kaneria all have 30+ averages.)

3 of the 10 spinners who have taken 200+ Test wickets at a sub-30 average are offies (Gibbs, Bedi and Saqlain).

Only 7 wristspinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets at a sub 30 average.

Muttiah Muralitharan (783 @ 22.21)
Shane Warne (708 @ 25.41)
Anil Kumble (619 @ 29.65)
Ritchie Benaud (248 @ 27.03)
Chandrasekhar (242 @ 29.74)
Clarrie Gimmett (216 @ 24.21)
Stuart MacGill (208 @ 29.02)

... which makes the lack of a chinaman bowler with that level of success statistically unremarkable, given the small proportion of left-handers in the population.

It may also be that turning your stock ball away from the right-hander is an advantage in a wristspinner, and so puts the chinaman bowler at a disadvantage, but I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.

Anyhow well dug out GF.

 

[fredfertang]

Fleetwood-Smith played 10 times for Australia and had 42 wickets at 37 when WW2 intervened - mind you had he had the foresight to not be fit for the Oval in '38 that would be 41 wickets at 31 in 9 Tests

 

[Jarquis]

May not be the best place for this question but who was the "frog" bowler? South African IIRC, although I could've made that part up

 

[stumpski]

That was Paul Adams, probably the most successful bowler of his type in Tests actually.

Can't think of another left arm wristy who got anywhere near 100 wickets.

 

[stumpski]

Just a brilliant picture that, and the maddest action ever.

 

[Jarquis]

*image*


Just a brilliant picture that, and the maddest action ever.

Yeah, I did a google search after you gave me his name. Remarkable. Actually looking skyward at the moment of release, bizarre.

 

[Furball]

... which makes the lack of a chinaman bowler with that level of success statistically unremarkable, given the small proportion of left-handers in the population.

It may also be that turning your stock ball away from the right-hander is an advantage in a wristspinner, and so puts the chinaman bowler at a disadvantage, but I don't think it's a clear-cut issue.

Anyhow well dug out GF.

Even taking the qualification down to 100 Test Wickets at a sub-30 average adds the following to my list of 7:

Subhash Gupte (149 @ 29.55)
Bill O'Reilly (144@ 22.59)

 

[Migara]

Hardest is the Iverson-Glesson-Mendis type of stuff. Only four people known up to now to bowl that "fick finger" delivery. There have been far more leggies and chinamen (I can name four on top of my head, Bevan, Katich, Hodd and Kline) than "carom ball" bowlers.

 

[Migara]

I personally resort to bowling ridiculously flighted deliveries when I bowl my brand of wrist spin because I can't spin the bowl at all. They're actually surprisingly useful.

I've got another question actually. Warne used to spin the bowl miles on some pitches. I've not watched too much cricket but I don't remember any leggie spinning it as much as say the Strauss delivery did. Mishra and Kanera have got some success lately but I've never seen that much spin from them, unless they hit an area of rough or something.

You don't have a faintest idea how Qadir used to spin them. Then you have MacGill as well.

 

[Furball]

Again looking at bowlers with a sub-30 career average, the chinaman bowler with the 2nd most career Test wickets is actually Michael Bevan.

 

[Uppercut]

A quick search on Statsguru reveals that only 14 spinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets.

Of those 14, only 10 of them have managed to do it with an average of under 30 (Harbhajan, Qadir, Vettori and Kaneria all have 30+ averages.)

3 of the 10 spinners who have taken 200+ Test wickets at a sub-30 average are offies (Gibbs, Bedi and Saqlain).

Only 7 wristspinners in the history of the game have taken more than 200 Test wickets at a sub 30 average.

Muttiah Muralitharan (783 @ 22.21)
Shane Warne (708 @ 25.41)
Anil Kumble (619 @ 29.65)
Ritchie Benaud (248 @ 27.03)
Chandrasekhar (242 @ 29.74)
Clarrie Gimmett (216 @ 24.21)
Stuart MacGill (208 @ 29.02)

There's a spinner with a better average than every one of those players, but he just missed the cut with only 193 test wickets. Step forward Jim Laker.

 

[Aritro]

MacGill turned his big leg break as much if not more than Warne IMO. Obviously he was an inferior bowler for many reasons but he certainly knew how to rip it.

I'd dispute whether MacGill could turn the ball further than Warne was turning his leg break circa 93

 

[Furball]

There's a spinner with a better average than every one of those players, but he just missed the cut with only 193 test wickets. Step forward Jim Laker.

Laker wasn't a wrist spinner though.