Rank the test sides

[aussie]

Err thats 2 different stories. You can't say India's bench strength is poor because players who came in and played 15-20 years ago were failures. It has no relevance to today. Fact of the matter is that there are players who have done the work at the domestic level, have impressed for the A team and the only step left for them to take is the step up to the international level (which they haven't had a chance to do).

It has all the relevance today. Same way if England get alot of leg-spinners in county cricket sudden i wont go jumping saying "finally England have got a WC leggie". If Aus get alot of off-spinners etc etc. History does certainly doesn't say IND will produce fast-bowlers of great quality consistently nor a consistent flow of test quality batsmen. So we defiantely should take a cautious approach in judging them.

The problem is that people continue to make the assumption that you can bypass technique to be a success at the international level. You can only go so far with a good eye and great timing, technique is one of the most important aspects of any player's makeup and the sooner people start accepting that the better. Yuvraj has failed time and time again because of his poor technique, and its just bloody annoying that people seem to think that he will magically succeed even though nothing has changed technically since his last stint.

I agreee 50%. Do you remember the spell he had againts Flintoff last winter, when Freddie was charging in @ 95 mph in a spell againts him & Yuvi really stood up technically?. Thats why i have recently reknewed hope in him...

 

[honestbharani]

The situations with Hayden & Hussey are different from Dravid. They where out of form for less than & year, while Dravid was out of from since IND where in here 2007. Only in NZ recent & 2009 IPL has he began to show back SOME signs of his old self.

If he was Australian he would have been dropped, because AUS always has someone pushing for place. A better comparison with Dravid's situation is Mark Waugh during 2002.



Exactly. If he was Australia he wont have been dropped before he got the chance to regain form in tests again, given his age. IND really



Which is the problem with INDs bench strenght, one of those guys really should be stepping up at this stage, as the era of Big 4 is coming to and end.



Kaif wasn't test quality. I don't know about Rahane & Pujara so wont comment. I have seen Tiwary & Pandey though.

Isn't Vijay an opener though?. I like what i saw of him in that test vs AUS, but it would be hard for him to get a test place with Sehwag/Gambhir around. Unless you reckon he has the versatility in his game to bat in the middle-order.

On Badrinath, i have been hearing calls for him to be selected since about when IND where here in 2007. But IND have avoided picking him & has gone back to Yuvraj. So thats a clear indication, that the selectors don't have 100% have faith him, despite his domestic performances.

no.. he is always looked upon as a solid player. Selectors have gone to Yuvraj because they believe he is potentially more of a match winner...

 

[honestbharani]

The fact that Yuvraj was the best they could find to fill in for Ganguly doesn't fill me with confidence though tbh.

Has an awesome 4th innings record.. Clearly the best player at the moment...

 

[honestbharani]

Thanks.

I had to break one of my rules (open an ignored post) to do this but I thought it was needed.

It also meant staying up till four in the morning

lol.. answering precamb's stats are a waste of time sometimes.. But this time, it was well worth it. Great work, sir...

 

[honestbharani]

We have indeed! They've won seven of their last eight ODI series, the only loss being the final Asia cup when Ajantha Mendis beat them single-handedly in the final. Before then, you have to go back to the 4-2 home loss to Australia two years ago to find the last time India lost an ODI series. It was the last ODI series which Dravid played in.

I know exactly what Dravid's role in ODIs was, I just don't consider it necessary to "rebuild" at one wicket down. Scoring runs quickly is, under every circumstance, better than scoring them slowly, and I don't think Dravid scores enough runs to justify how slowly he scores. I would absolutely agree that his solidarity in the middle order was a good thing, but it doesn't exist. He's only scoring marginally more runs than Yuvraj Singh or Suresh Raina and considerably less than MS Dhoni. Solidarity does not mean simply batting negatively.

Regarding the point about Jacques Kallis, I rather agree with it, but he gets endless and over-the-top abuse for selfishness so it's not entirely worth bringing up. Their technique and ability to counter top-class bowling is something that's not currently necessary on the pitches that ODI cricket is played on at the moment.

I think the defensive batsman at number 3 is a position that's going out of the game.

Defensive or attacking is just an attitude. A technically weak batsman like Raina can't succeed at 3 just because he is "attacking" if the pitch is conjusive to even a bit of pace and bounce... A Raina will end up scoring 5 off 10 and getting out while a Dravid there will get you a 30 off 55... I know what I would prefer, esp. if that 30 off 55 means a better platform for Dhoni and YUvraj lower down...


On flat tracks, most strong guys can do a job... Heck, even Praveen Kumar succeeded yest. on a flat track in the corporate trophy up the order which is as good as the challenger series in terms of quality..

 

[Uppercut]

Defensive or attacking is just an attitude. A technically weak batsman like Raina can't succeed at 3 just because he is "attacking" if the pitch is conjusive to even a bit of pace and bounce... A Raina will end up scoring 5 off 10 and getting out while a Dravid there will get you a 30 off 55... I know what I would prefer, esp. if that 30 off 55 means a better platform for Dhoni and YUvraj lower down...


On flat tracks, most strong guys can do a job... Heck, even Praveen Kumar succeeded yest. on a flat track in the corporate trophy up the order which is as good as the challenger series in terms of quality..

I think the overwhelming predominance of flat tracks in ODI cricket these days is a large part of what makes a player like Dravid redundant. If you're retaining him in the side exclusively for the one match in fifteen when there's something in the pitch for the bowlers it's surely a bit too much of a liability to be carrying around.

 

[honestbharani]

I think the overwhelming predominance of flat tracks in ODI cricket these days is a large part of what makes a player like Dravid redundant. If you're retaining him in the side exclusively for the one match in fifteen when there's something in the pitch for the bowlers it's surely a bit too much of a liability to be carrying around.

But it is very much horses for courses though.. Even a good flat track in RSA will have a bit more pace and bounce than normal ones.. So that is where you would expect blokes like Raina and Rohit to get found out... Hence, Dravid has come back. I would not be surprised if he helped India win the CT and then retired... It is quite possible that he would use this stage to go out of ODIs on his own terms...

 

[Uppercut]

Raina absolutely owned in South Africa during the last IPL tbf. Rohit was excellent too.

For all the fuss surrounding Dravid's success in the tournament, both of those players scored considerably more runs at a higher average than he did.

 

[honestbharani]

Raina absolutely owned in South Africa during the last IPL tbf. Rohit was excellent too.

For all the fuss surrounding Dravid's success in the tournament, both of those players scored considerably more runs at a higher average than he did.

remains to be seen how they go in the sticky early season conditions, though, right? Plus Rohit's confidence is at an all time low.. He was getting bounced out in the slow, low Windies tracks, FFS... So I think it is very much the right move to get Dravid back in at this stage.. Srikkanth even mentioned that the conditions might be somewhat similar to England coz it is very much early season in RSA in september..

 

[TT Boy]

Raina absolutely owned in South Africa during the last IPL tbf. Rohit was excellent too.

For all the fuss surrounding Dravid's success in the tournament, both of those players scored considerably more runs at a higher average than he did.

IPL was played at the beginning of the South African winter, when the wickets were slow and dead.

Champions Trophy would be a better test for both players as the wickets will be fresh and most likely full of pace and bounce.

 

[Uppercut]

IPL was played at the beginning of the South African winter, when the wickets were slow and dead.

Champions Trophy would be a better test for both players as the wickets will be fresh and most likely full of pace and bounce.

Yeah, but it does still show the error in the "we'll need Dravid for South Africa because pitches will be fast and bouncy" line of thinking. It's a bit of a presumption that might not actually be true. Particularly now that they've taken to shaving all the grass off pitches in an attempt to minimise the effect of the toss in day-nighters.

 

[TT Boy]

Yeah, but it does still show the error in the "we'll need Dravid for South Africa because pitches will be fast and bouncy" line of thinking. It's a bit of a presumption that might not actually be true. Particularly now that they've taken to shaving all the grass off pitches in an attempt to minimise the effect of the toss in day-nighters.

D/N's are fair game in Jo'burg or Centurion. Not playing at Kingsmead or Newlands.

Dravid did have some success in South Africa last time India had a ODI series there. A series in which they were beaten 4 zip and practically everyone in their top order got exposed. Similar time of the year as well...

Tour Match: Rest of South Africa v Indians at Benoni, Nov 16, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
2nd ODI: South Africa v India at Durban, Nov 22, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
3rd ODI: South Africa v India at Cape Town, Nov 26, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
4th ODI: South Africa v India at Port Elizabeth, Nov 29, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
5th ODI: South Africa v India at Centurion, Dec 3, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

 

[Uppercut]

D/N's are fair game in Jo'burg or Centurion. Not playing at Kingsmead or Newlands.

Dravid did have some success in South Africa last time India had a ODI series there. A series in which they were beaten 4 zip and practically everyone in their top order got exposed. Similar time of the year as well...

Tour Match: Rest of South Africa v Indians at Benoni, Nov 16, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
2nd ODI: South Africa v India at Durban, Nov 22, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
3rd ODI: South Africa v India at Cape Town, Nov 26, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
4th ODI: South Africa v India at Port Elizabeth, Nov 29, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
5th ODI: South Africa v India at Centurion, Dec 3, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com

Where's the success you're referring to? His only score was a 63 off 103 balls chasing 275. Alright, you can allow for the fact that the rest of the batting lineup scored even less, and they would have lost anyway. But that's still a really dire effort.

 

[Cruxdude]

Where's the success you're referring to? His only score was a 63 off 103 balls chasing 275. Alright, you can allow for the fact that the rest of the batting lineup scored even less, and they would have lost anyway. But that's still a really dire effort.

Throughout the series India was way beyond dire. I remember Laxman being flown in particularly for the last match and he scored a first ball duck. Holding this against Dravid is not fair. He adds strength to the team and also gives a kick to the youngsters who thought they were safe and secure.

 

[Uppercut]

Throughout the series India was way beyond dire. I remember Laxman being flown in particularly for the last match and he scored a first ball duck. Holding this against Dravid is not fair. He adds strength to the team and also gives a kick to the youngsters who thought they were safe and secure.

I'm not holding it against Dravid, but you can hardly exactly hold him up as a beacon of fabulous success on those performances either.

 

[Cruxdude]

I'm not holding it against Dravid, but you can hardly exactly hold him up as a beacon of fabulous success on those performances either.

Well I think you would accept he has the technique and talent to succeed anywhere. Him coming into the team is not a mistake. Players given a chance didn't perform and Dravid got in on the strength of his performance in the IPL and the assurance he brings with him.

 

[Uppercut]

Well I think you would accept he has the technique and talent to succeed anywhere. Him coming into the team is not a mistake. Players given a chance didn't perform and Dravid got in on the strength of his performance in the IPL and the assurance he brings with him.

As I just pointed out, the players he's replacing- Rohit and Raina- both outperformed him quite comfortably in the IPL. I don't think Dravid has the technique and talent to succeed anywhere in ODI cricket, I think he scores too slowly and puts pressure on the lower order to hit out from ball one. I don't think this is a good move from the India selectors.

 

[honestbharani]

I'm not holding it against Dravid, but you can hardly exactly hold him up as a beacon of fabulous success on those performances either.

No... you expect him to perform well (and MAINLY, better than Rohit or Raina) because he has the better technique and the experience to handle these conditions.


First of all, no one is expecting him to set the world alight... Do we expect him to hit 150 every game and win us matches? NO. Do we expect him to play better than Raina or Rohit in those conditions? YES.. That is the basis of his selection.. Nothing else.

 

[Amitpal_00]

1. South Africa
2. India
3. Australia
4. England
5. Sri Lanka
6. England
7. Pakistan
8. New Zealand
9. West Indies
10. Bangladesh

 

[slippyslip]

1. South Africa
2. India
3. Australia
4. England
5. Sri Lanka
6. England
7. Pakistan
8. New Zealand
9. West Indies
10. Bangladesh

I'm guessing you meann 7-10 are 6-9 and Zimbabwe 10?