Grand Final - Greatest All-rounder of All Time

[Uppercut]

I'd love to hear your reasoning behind thinking this.

The true value of Jacques Kallis will only be truly appreciated when he retires IMO. He's the single reason why South Africa can field a 6 batsmen, 4 bowlers line up.

I consider Jacques Kallis one of the greatest modern cricketers tbh. The value of all all-rounders is severely under-appreciated for me.

It's just because I think quality bowling wins you more games than quality batting does. I'm not going to go as far to say something so crude and unrefined as "bowling >>> batting". But the difference between a great bowler and a mediocre bowler is greater than the difference between a great batsman and a mediocre batsman.

So when you have the choice between a great bowler-good batsman combo like Imran and a great batsman-good bowler combo like Sobers, I'm inclined to go for the former.

 

[Migara]

I consider Jacques Kallis one of the greatest modern cricketers tbh. The value of all all-rounders is severely under-appreciated for me.

It's just because I think quality bowling wins you more games than quality batting does. I'm not going to go as far to say something so crude and unrefined as "bowling >>> batting". But the difference between a great bowler and a mediocre bowler is greater than the difference between a great batsman and a mediocre batsman.

So when you have the choice between a great bowler-good batsman combo like Imran and a great batsman-good bowler combo like Sobers, I'm inclined to go for the former.

Spot on. You have only 4-5 bowlers in a test side. If one is mediocre, others have to work much harder. If you have a mediocre batsmen in a lineup of 6-7 batsmen, batsmen have to do lesser extra work than a bowler to cover for the deficiency.

 

[Zinzan]

I consider Jacques Kallis one of the greatest modern cricketers tbh. The value of all all-rounders is severely under-appreciated for me.

It's just because I think quality bowling wins you more games than quality batting does. I'm not going to go as far to say something so crude and unrefined as "bowling >>> batting". But the difference between a great bowler and a mediocre bowler is greater than the difference between a great batsman and a mediocre batsman.

So when you have the choice between a great bowler-good batsman combo like Imran and a great batsman-good bowler combo like Sobers, I'm inclined to go for the former.

Agree 100%

 

[Fusion]

Sobers and Imran. The two most complete players in history IMO. As mentioned by someone before, one can walk into an all-time XI purely as a batsman, and the other as a bowler. My next two would've been Miller and Botham.

 

[biased indian]

Sobers and Imran. The two most complete players in history IMO. As mentioned by someone before, one can walk into an all-time XI purely as a batsman, and the other as a bowler. My next two would've been Miller and Botham.

this for me also

 

[Ikki]

Who is this Akbar who seems to pop up only to vote for Imran? A sock?

 

[subshakerz]

Sobers and Imran for me. Both Walk in to a world XI, first one with batting and second with bowling. Miller short of such batting or bowling ability to walk in to a world XI.

Yes, this is my reasoning as well. I'm not particularly concerned about how balanced the all-rounders are (otherwise I would have gone for Imran and Miller), but how much value they add to their teams. Miller and Hadlee follow closely after these two.

To truly appreciate Sobers, imagine having a Brian Lara in your team who has more than 200 plus wickets and is an all-time great fielder. To appreciate Imran, imagine having a Dennis Lillee in your team who is also an accomplished lower order batsman and an all-time great captain. Aside from Bradman, nobody gave more to their teams than these two.

 

[Ikki]

Apart from Miller who was a middle order batsman for one if the greatest ever test
teams and also one of the best bowlers in the world, only restricted in his bowling quota otherwise an all-time great with the ball. Was also a great fielder unlike Imran and a fantastic leader, allegedly superior to Sobers. In terms of completeness, he is the one.

 

[subshakerz]

I consider Jacques Kallis one of the greatest modern cricketers tbh. The value of all all-rounders is severely under-appreciated for me.

It's just because I think quality bowling wins you more games than quality batting does. I'm not going to go as far to say something so crude and unrefined as "bowling >>> batting". But the difference between a great bowler and a mediocre bowler is greater than the difference between a great batsman and a mediocre batsman.

So when you have the choice between a great bowler-good batsman combo like Imran and a great batsman-good bowler combo like Sobers, I'm inclined to go for the former.

I disagree actually. I think the best example of this is the case of South Africa, when you had Shaun Pollock and Kallis playing in the same team.

Pollock was roughly as great a bowler as Kallis was a batsman. And as decent a batsman as Kallis was a bowler. But IMO Kallis was the more valuable player in the side.

The reasoning is that Kallis as a fifth bowler was used as more of a stock/support bowler to the other four main bowlers, and in that role he performed well. He wasn't expected to win matches on his own but take some occasional key wickets, maintain pressure, and given the main bowlers some rest. He was a consistent bowling contributor in this way in pretty much every match he played.

Pollock as a lower order batsman could provide the occasional run boost but I dont think his contribution matches Kallis in bowling.

Of course, its hard to judge these thing, and it varies player by player. I agree that bowlers should be more valued than batsman, but I think Sobers (one of the top five batsman of all-time) was greater as a batsman than Imran (one of the top ten bowlers ever) as a bowler. And when it comes to their secondary disciplines, I would take Sobers over Imran for the reasons given above.

 

[Fusion]

Apart from Miller who was a middle order batsman for one if the greatest ever test
teams and also one of the best bowlers in the world, only restricted in his bowling quota otherwise an all-time great with the ball. Was also a great fielder unlike Imran and a fantastic leader, allegedly superior to Sobers. In terms of completeness, he is the one.

I’m curious Ikki. I’ve seen you debate on countless threads on how you don’t consider Sobers to be that good of an all-rounder. However here you have voted for him, along with Miller. Has your opinion changed? Why do you now consider Sobers to be superior to Imran, Botham and the likes?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I’m curious Ikki. I’ve seen you debate on countless threads on how you don’t consider Sobers to be that good of an all-rounder. However here you have voted for him, along with Miller. Has your opinion changed? Why do you now consider Sobers to be superior to Imran, Botham and the likes?

It's known as tactical voting. Sobers is the likely winner of the poll so a vote for Imran would decrease Miller's chances of finishing second.

 

[Ikki]

I’m curious Ikki. I’ve seen you debate on countless threads on how you don’t consider Sobers to be that good of an all-rounder. However here you have voted for him, along with Miller. Has your opinion changed? Why do you now consider Sobers to be superior to Imran, Botham and the likes?

My good friend, I do consider Sobers a great all-rounder. Those debates revolved around me arguing that he is rated much too high for the record he holds. His position is competitive, not domineering. Imran's batting exploits for me are a bit out of porportion and he didn't excel as much at both disciplines at the same time and Botham's record is too night and day for me to rate him the best. Although I think I could have picked either of them for 2nd place - including Kallis - I think Miller is ahead of all and the best rounded player the game has ever had.

 

[subshakerz]

My good friend, I do consider Sobers a great all-rounder. Those debates revolved around me arguing that he is rated much too high for the record he holds. His position is competitive, not domineering. Imran's batting exploits for me are a bit out of porportion and he didn't excel as much at both disciplines at the same time and Botham's record is too night and day for me to rate him the best. Although I think I could have picked either of them for 2nd place - including Kallis - I think Miller is ahead of all and the best rounded player the game has ever had.

Except that he did, over a sustained period.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

I agree with you that Sobers position is competitive, though I still tend to rate him as the most valuable all-rounder in the group. Given his overall similarity in their Miller's career record, why not rate Imran over Sobers as well? Surely he was closer to the level you put Miller at than Sobers?

 

[Ikki]

No, sorry, I don't buy that he did. Those innings and the not-outs in that period from position 7 and lower is simply misleading. At #7 he scored 1425 runs in 8 years? He was never in Miller's caliber for example when he averaged 45 with the bat and 22 with the ball. Also, I was also mentioning the fact that the others seemed to perform more in the same match with both disciplines than Imran. SJS had a good post on this and there was a thread dedicated to this too. Miller, Botham and Sobers did this better.

And with regards to your question of rating Imran better than Sobers, well I could have to be honest and I wouldn't have lost sleep over it. I just think while there is a bit too much made of his record overall, the period where he bowled good quality pace bowling during the 60s combined with his awesome batting is undeniably good. And although I don't rate him highly as a spinner when we are talking small differences it may mean a bit more; also he was an awesome fielder, outfield or in the slips. Imran was the better man manager though. I could have rated Kallis higher than Sobers too and I wouldn't have lost sleep over that either, exact same with Botham. I may have copped out going for the popular choice but it certainly wasn't tactical as LT tries to imply.

 

[bagapath]

well, logging in after a gap of two days and baffled to see hadlee getting more votes than botham. on top of this we have to add one more vote to hadlee that has gone to kapil by mistake.

how is hadlee a better all-rounder than botham (or even kapil) ? can someone please explain to me..

 

[bagapath]

Votes of those who intentionally voted for one choice should not be counted at all even if they come up with excuses(SJS's case is an exception).These are JBMAC,england4ahes & PhoenixFire.

I dont think so bhupinder. voting for more than two is cheating. choosing one player is legit, IMO

 

[bagapath]

It is the last match up. I think the idea of two votes is to prevent it from being a procession of 75 votes for Sobers, Bup Sing voting for Imran and Ikki voting for Miller. It makes it more interesting to see who people consider number two behind Sobers.

yeah. that is the idea. i am struggling to decide my votes for precisely the same reason. i dont know who the no.2 on my list is. imran-miller-botham are too close to call for me.

SJS! if you tell me who your second choice would be, I will be happy to add your vote to him (I am in your city for my work. i cant handle the rain)

 

[SJS]

yeah. that is the idea. i am struggling to decide my votes for precisely the same reason. i dont know who the no.2 on my list is. imran-miller-botham are too close to call for me.

SJS! if you tell me who your second choice would be, I will be happy to add your vote to him (I am in your city for my work. i cant handle the rain)

Miller

 

[SJS]

yeah. that is the idea. i am struggling to decide my votes for precisely the same reason. i dont know who the no.2 on my list is. imran-miller-botham are too close to call for me.

SJS! if you tell me who your second choice would be, I will be happy to add your vote to him (I am in your city for my work. i cant handle the rain)

Are you still here on Tuesday? Why dont we meet ?

 

[bagapath]

Sobers and Imran for me. Both Walk in to a world XI, first one with batting and second with bowling. Miller short of such batting or bowling ability to walk in to a world XI.

I dont know how valid this argument is in choosing the greatest all-rounder of all time. hadlee is quite possibly a superior bowler to imran khan. that doesnt make him an automatic choice.

having said that, i am also succumbing to your reasoning, despite finding it illogical, and going to follow my heart and vote for the same two people for the same reasons

EDIT: Changed my decision at the last minute one last time, chose logic over heart and voted for miller and botham. i think they are the truest all rounders in the lot.